Hey Guys,

Has anyone heard of using Varget powder for large NE cartridges?, It looks similar to RL15 ( cant find any).

Even though similar in the tests that Michael458 and myselft did with the 470 and 500 NE we found pressures were higher than RL-15 with little gain in velocity. I think there are better powders for NEs than Varget.

My .416 Rem likes the Varget powder for both the 350 and 400 grain bullets but I haven't ever tried if for the NE cartridges. I'll see what my load books recommend.

It is perfect for my 9.3X62 bolt rifle. I wonder if it is suitable for the 9.3X74R???

Double BC
None of the loading manuals list Varget for the NE cartridges. Just thought I'd let you know.

Thanks allot Rick, I couldn't find any either, or much for heavy bullets period (above 400 grns).

Thanks for the help guys, appreciate it. Trying to put together some les temp sensitive loads. Im going to try h4831sc and now Varget is out I will probably try H4350.

I'm having a hell of a time with accuracy right now.

If you can find Norma 203B use that.

Rusty beat me to it, the new Norma reloading manual lists several loads for the .470 and the .500 with their 203B. If you can find that powder.

Norma sold batches of 203B to Alliant. They repackaged it as RL-15!

Yes, sir! And when the 203B became available last year, I bought 3 8 lb jugs of it. Load data looks to be exact. Thanks for the heads up. I now have plenty of both.

quote:

My .416 Rem likes the Varget powder for both the 350 and 400 grain bullets but I haven't ever tried if for the NE cartridges. I'll see what my load books recommend.

My 400H&H likes Varget with 350 and 400 grain projectiles as well

Certainly do not want to gain velocity with Varget,
just duplicate same old boring regulation loads in your double rifle.

Norma Reloading Manual, 2013 latest Ed.:
(No mention of filler for the 203-B load is made, but surely Dacron or foam wad should be used.)

470 NE
C.O.L. 3.839" for both solid and soft loads below in Norma brass cartridge case:
Case volume: 147.1 grains water
Primer: Winchester Magnum (WLRM)
Barrel length: 26"
Twist: 1:21"
Maximum pressure: 2700 bar (39,160 psi)

500-grain Woodleigh FMJ
Norma 203-B: Max = Min = 87.7 grains >>> 2182 fps
Norma MRP: Max = Min = 105.7 grains >>> 2077 fps

500-grain Woodleigh RNSN
Norma 203-B: Max = Min = 88.0 grains >>> 2087 fps
Norma MRP: Max = Min = 106.0 grains >>> 2011 fps

Norma 203-B is said to be the perfect batch of RL-15,
with 203-B "seconds" of variable burn rate being re-labeled and sold in the USA as RL-15.

After finding out all of this, I would either stick with Norma 203-B,
or go straight to Varget and try the same charges of "Varget Extreme" as for Norma 203-B above.
Varget is more temperature stable.
That is important if you want your double rifle to shoot to regulation in different temperatures.

RL-15 80.0 grains and Varget 81.0 grains gave similar results in my 404 Jeffery,
~2400 fps with Woodleigh RNSN in my rifle,
with whatever lot/burn rate of RL-15 I had.
Varget does not vary as much from lot to lot as RL-15.
RL-15 temperature sensitivity is not bad, but Varget Extreme is better.

Switching to Varget from RL-15 should be a very good thing to do.
Use filler and watch chronograph and get the 470 NE shooting to regulation.

Or use Hodgdon H4831 Extreme with no filler, whichever shoots closest to regulation ...
Apparently ballistics and barrel time of original loads
(with either fast powder with filler or slow powder with no filler)
can be done well enough for practical purposes.
I found that to be true in a Merkel 470 NE with RL-15 and filler as well as H4831 and no filler.
I also long ago resolved to switch RL-15 loads to Varget, whenever possible, but have not got around to all of them yet.
Varget is a little bulkier than the same weight charge of RL-15,
so less filler will be needed, or same filler as for RL-15 will be plenty snug.

I guess Norma is using no filler with their 203-B loads for 470 NE.
But they are using the WLRM primer which is said to be "hotter" than the F-215 Primer.
Like Federal used to load the 470 NE with RL-15 and no filler but used an "F-216" primer that handloaders could not buy.

Therefore, when I try Varget or Norma 203-B with the above load data,
I will use filler and F-215 primer, but reduce the powder charge by 2 grains and work up, watching chronograph and POIs.

Federal 470 NE factory loads with no filler were always crappy-inconsistent, with wide velocity spreads ...

since I switched to Norma 203B I find there is less variation between batches of 203B than RL-15.
I use foam filler and Federal 215 Match Primers!

Rip,

I am loading for my Searcy 450 NE, I have found one heck of a difference in regulation with IMR 4831 and temp.
Im not interested in working up any more loads that will not regulate in all temps as I plan on using the rifle for allot of hunting up north for moose. The last Hunt I was on it was -7c in the morning and 23c in the afternoon. I like to be confident when pulling the trigger.

Ah so, it is a shame that Butch did not get you a Hodgdon Extreme regulation load.

I have seen H4350 Extreme to be very temperature insensitive also, in chronographing myself.
That might be closer in burn rate to IMR-4831 than H4831 Extreme.
Might be easy to find a regulation load for that and not have to mess with fillers,
since you know the regulation load for your 450 NE with IMR-4831?

Maximum loads for the 470 NE in the Hodgdon Manual with 500 grain bullets are for 500 gr "Woodleigh RN," Hornady case, "Federal 215M" primer:
All of these are supposed to give 40,800 PSI:

H4831: 112.0 grains
IMR-4831: 108.0 grains
H4350: 105.0 grains

I would consider trying 105/108 = 97.22% of your IMR-4831 charge as the H4350 charge,
or have fun playing with fillers and Varget.

Varget and H4350 are both excellent for temperature insensitivity.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Ah so, it is a shame that Butch did not get you a Hodgdon Extreme regulation load.

I have seen H4350 Extreme to be very temperature insensitive also, in chronographing myself.
That might be closer in burn rate to IMR-4831 than H4831 Extreme.
Might be easy to find a regulation load for that and not have to mess with fillers,
since you know the regulation load for your 450 NE with IMR-4831?

Maximum loads for the 470 NE in the Hodgdon Manual with 500 grain bullets are for 500 gr "Woodleigh RN," Hornady case, "Federal 215M" primer:
All of these are supposed to give 40,800 PSI:

H4831: 112.0 grains
IMR-4831: 108.0 grains
H4350: 105.0 grains

I would consider trying 105/108 = 97.22% of your IMR-4831 charge as the H4350 charge,
or have fun playing with fillers and Varget.

Varget and H4350 are both excellent for temperature insensitivity.

The ADI (Australian Defence Industries) range of temperature insensitive AR powders as we know them in this part of the world are just renamed for your Stateside market sold under the Hodgdon banner.

Varget is AR2208
H4350 is AR2209
H4831 is AR2213
H1000 is AR2217

The ADI reloading guide is available online and lists a huge range of cartridges with starting and maximum loads. So call it what you will if you are using Hodgdon powders you are using Aussie made stuff that is designed to be temperature insensitive and are great powders.

Right on.

www.adi-powders.com.au/handloaders-guide

Scrolling around there I found only these two loads for the 450 Nitro Express, 24" barrel, "500 gr bullet":

AR2208 (VARGET) 84.0 grains >>> 2150 fps
AR2209 (H4350) 100.0 grains >>> 2150 fps

Again, I would say start 2 grains lower than this with the VARGET/AR2208 and use about 4 to 5 grains of Dacron fiber
or a packing foam wad, with F215 or GM215M primer by Federal.
No filler with H4350.


The rest of the "Hodgdon Extreme" Line of Powders and ADI designations, fastest to slowest burn rates:

H4198 = AR2207
H322 = AR2219
BENCHMARK = ADI Bench Mark 2
H4895 = AR2206H
VARGET = AR2208
H4350 = AR2209
H4831SC = AR2213SC
H1000 = AR2217
RETUMBO = AR2225
H50BMG = AR2218

And ADI is making the new IMR-8208-XBR which is a repackaging of "ADI Bench Mark 8208."
Hodgdon owns IMR now and must have wanted to give IMR at least one temperature insensitive powder.

ADI calls it "Temperature Independence" and I will too, henceforth.
"ADI Powders' legendary Ballistic Temperature Independence properties."
************************************************
Bench Mark 8208 launches at Shot Show
13 June 2012

ADI Powders is launching its extruded Bench Mark 8208 propellant at this week's Shot Show in Sydney, responding to consumer demand for a product that has gained significant plaudits overseas.

This short grain reloading powder is already a hit in the US, where it has quickly acquired a deserved reputation among serious shooters for accuracy and stability over a wide temperature range.

The secret to the powder's success is found in ADI Powders' legendary Ballistic Temperature Independence properties. Closely guarded manufacturing techniques, developed over many decades supplying military-grade powders, ensure that Bench Mark 8208 performs with rock-solid consistency in extreme heat and cold, easing the burden performance shooters face when dealing with changing temperatures.

As with all ADI reloading powders, Bench Mark 8208 will maintain consistency from lot to lot, meaning that a load developed for this powder will need less tweaking when moving to a newly-bought can. This consistency is the result of a stringent manufacturing process that focuses on quality from start to finish, and is governed by military production standards. Every lot of ADI sporting powder is tested for ballistic performance using specialised proof barrels.

Bench Mark 8208 is now available at retailers across Australia, and is perfected for today's most popular match, varmint and hunting rounds. For a full list of suggested calibres and reloading data, please visit www.adi-powders.com.au/handloaders-guide or ask your ADI propellant stockist for a reloading data sheet for ADI Bench Mark 8208.
************************************************

ADI Benchmark 8208 (IMR-8208-XBR)
is just a bit slower in burn rate than
ADI Benchmark 2 (Hodgdon BENCHMARK Extreme)

IMHO, the entire art of loading Nitro for Black/NFBPE and Nitro Express cartridges for double rifles should switch,
wherever possible, to the ADI powders or equivalent "Hodgdon Extreme" repackagings:

ADI AR2207 (Hodgdon H4198 Extreme) to replace IMR-4198
ADI Bench Mark 2 (Hodgdon BENCHMARK Extreme) to replace IMR-3031
ADI AR2208 (Hodgdon VARGET Extreme) to replace RL-15
ADI AR2209 (Hodgdon H4350 Extreme) to replace IMR-4831, etc.


Ballistic Temperature Independence.
Hopefully ADI does not sell its "seconds" (lot variant burn rates) to Hodgdon for repackaging and relabeling ...

"As with all ADI reloading powders, Bench Mark 8208 will maintain consistency from lot to lot, meaning that a load developed for this powder will need less tweaking when moving to a newly-bought can."

Great call digging up the Ausi powder equivilants, It totally slipped my mind when looking for loads. Thanks guys!