The post on how much one of these should weigh seems to concur with 9 to 9.5 pounds. OK, but is there any place you can ACTUALLY GET ONE that weighs this much?

I have noticed that there are 9.3x74s that weigh as little as 7.5 pounds. But 450/400s all seem to be built on frames intended tor the .470 Nitro Express. Why?

I notice a Searcy 450/400 at Cabela's that weighs 11.5 pounds, albeit with scope (although the scope is mounted too high to be worth a darn). Yet there is a .500 Nirto Express under 10 pounds listed there.

By "available" I am referring to a rifle with little or no customization--Searcy, Heym, Krieghoff, Chapuis, Merkel, Blaser or the like. I'm not concerned very much about fancy engraving. My rifles all get dinged up hunting.

I don't want to wait a year for delivery and might consider one off the rack. I stopped at a store where they had two Heyms in this caliber and they fit me. But why do most of them weigh so darn much? Is there an alternative?

Humm, this post has me puzzled?

Can you get a 450/400 at 9.5lbs? Yes you can. Simple, I ordered mine to come in around 9.5 lbs.It is a FAMARS ordered with Adam Freeman at Luxus Walnut.

You said "by available I am referring to a rifle with little or no customization-- Searcy, Heym, Krieghoff, Chapuis, Merkel, Blaser or the like"

well most of the guns you mentioned there are custom guns. Heym, Searcy-- most are built to fit there customer so I'm sure they can be built at 9.5lbs

As far as I know Chapuis and Blaser do not build a 450/400, the one K-gun that I held was about 11 lbs, but had a recoil reducer in the butt so that puts it between 10-10.5 lbs. Merkel I've never seen one, so I cant say.

True classic brit guns are hard to find because they were building more than just 450/400. So as long as the blance was "right between the hands" the guns felt "lighter" than they really were.

The 9 lb 450/400 is the Unicorn of the AR double rifle forum, deemed to be perfect, I went a little heaver to cope with recoil, and the guns you are refering too ( built for the general public) are better off with a weight between 10-11.5 lbs to cope with recoil-- belive me a 400 grain bullet at 2150 has some recoil.

Indy-- If you want somthing exactly the way you want it in the double rifle world-- you need to order it. If not take what you get.

Ed

Indy:

You are correct. A 9.5-10 pound 450/400 is indeed hard to find. Seacy will build one for you but it takes a year. I wanted to offer you another thought. How about a 10.5 pound .500/.416. The .500/.416 is a lot more cartridge. Same 400 grain bullet but running around 2300-2350 fps. A Krieghoff in that caliber will come in at around 10.5 pounds. In my view, that's about perfect.

quote:

Originally posted by 505ED:
Humm, this post has me puzzled?

Can you get a 450/400 at 9.5lbs? Yes you can. Simple, I ordered mine to come in around 9.5 lbs.It is a FAMARS ordered with Adam Freeman at Luxus Walnut.....Ed

Ed,

I hope you get exactly what you ordered...but what are you going to do if your beautiful brand new FAMARS comes in at 10lbs?

I'd bet that 95% of all 450/400's are 10+ lbs.
And the other 5% don't come up for sale all that often....

quote:

Originally posted by AzGuy:

quote:

Originally posted by 505ED:
Humm, this post has me puzzled?

Can you get a 450/400 at 9.5lbs? Yes you can. Simple, I ordered mine to come in around 9.5 lbs.It is a FAMARS ordered with Adam Freeman at Luxus Walnut.....Ed

Ed,

I hope you get exactly what you ordered...but what are you going to do if your beautiful brand new FAMARS comes in at 10lbs?

I'd bet that 95% of all 450/400's are 10+ lbs.
And the other 5% don't come up for sale all that often....

I love it none the less-- I did not build the gun based on weight, it was just one of the things that I said I'd prefer--

I hope your bespoke double comes out the way you want it too AzGuy

It is true that many of the old Britt double rifles chambered for the 450/400NE 3", and 3 1/4" come in at well over 10 lbs, Many in the 11 lbs, and over.

That being said I simply do not understand why anyone has an objection to a 10Llb double rifle chambered for any cartridge in the .400 cal and up! Hell most of my bolt action rifles from 375 H&H up weigh in at around 10 lbs loaded, and depending on the scope and mounts adds another pound. When most big bore bolt rifles come in at 10 lbs up with the magazine loaded and scope attached, it is a real task to bring a rifle down to 10 lbs when it has not one but two barrels, and ribs, and are usually at least 24" long, while most bigbore bolt, and single shots will weigh that much with one barrel!

MY little 9.3X74R doubles come in at 8.3, and 8.6 lbs, and my Army & Navy 450/400NE 3" made on a Webley action was just 1 oz over 10 lbs, and was a pleasure to carry and shoot. I carry a 11 lb 470NE all day with no problem.

I, in fact, find some of the new doubles to be on the light side for their chambering. The Chapuis rifles tend to be very light for chamberings, as are the Heyms in 470NE and up. The 470NE Heym could use another pound of weight IMO, and still not be too heavy.

I'll just say this, All the 10-10.5 lb double rifles you find too heavy for being chambered for 450/400NE 3", just send them over to my house, where someone who loves them will take very good care of them!

..........................

The problem isn't a 10lb or 10 1/4lb double rifle, it is a 10lb double rifle that shoots only 400grs!

For the 10lbs or so weight you are humping, you can and should have the advantage of 480gr or 500gr bullets.

Searcy will build a 9.5lb 400 rifle. I asked.

The reason so many 400's weight too much is that they were/are built on the same frame as the larger bores. It is that simple.

JPK

Mac

I totally agree with you. The guns today are being made too damned light IMHO. If a pound or two is a major issue, take it off your waist line!!

Don

And if you eat lettuce, don't smoke, run 10 miles a day, no fat, no trans fat, carry a eighty pound pack every day to work and back, you figure you ain't ever goin' to die.

I got news for you!

I would much prefer a 10.5 lb 450/400 that balanced well than a 9lb gun that felt a bit clubby in the hands and totally unbalanced.


Maybe i should chop off 2" off one of my 450/400's, re regulated to shoot as well
as it does and send it over to the US.

Sound like some serious fighting would be had over them in the scramble. (2 of them weight just over 10lbs so it wouldn't be difficult to make them weigh 9lbs)

And then when a few 9 - 9.5lb 450/400's are available, the criteria will switch to 8.5lbs.
That seems to be what people do with these arbitary figures they pluck from the air.


I like your comment about if you want to carry less weight, take it off your waist line !!!
Very good.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

The 470NE Heym could use another pound of weight IMO, and still not be too heavy.

..........................

+1

Mac, I think the point everyone is trying to make is if you have to carry a 10.5 pound gun, why not put more cartridge in it?

Yes Will, and let's not forget that "if" the Queen had balls, she'd be the King!

Hey, if they're not heavy enough, the world is full of wheel weights.

Those turkeys are so heavy because no one wants to have the expense of small receivers for small calibers. One size fits all. And over designed to boot.

If an 11 lb. 450/400 is the norm, why not the corresponding 13 lb. 470? And a 16 lb. 500 NE?

And since you don't mind humping a 13 pounder, why not carry mine too?

Is 11 lb the norm or is it that those who have 10lb guns don't let them go ?

I have 2 that come in at 10lbs and just under 10.5lbs (they were roughly weighed).

One is a nice, lightweight gun by A&N (from memory it's a Webley action).

The 9.5 - 10 pound 450/400 rifles that balance correctly due to the

weight being between the hands are nothing less than GEMS and

the owners all seem to know that and don't sell them; or ask strong

money for them, which they deserve unfortunately for me. My own

rifle has 28" bbls and weighs 10 lb 7 oz. I am sure removing four

inches of bbl length TIMES TWO would get me under 10 pounds, but

the balance would be thrown off so I'd have to remove wood from

the butt stock and I'd loose maybe 75 - 100 feet per second of vel-

ocity, which I really don't want to do!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

The 470NE Heym could use another pound of weight IMO, and still not be too heavy.

..........................

+1

Mac, I think the point everyone is trying to make is if you have to carry a 10.5 pound gun, why not put more cartridge in it?

If that's what you want go to it, The reason I would want a 10 lb 450/400Ne 3" is because I want a 450/400NE 3" double rifle. I couldn't care less why anyone else wants a different chambering, or a certain weight rifle no matter the chambering!

.........I say if you want a larger chambering that it has absolutely nothing to do with my choice. I have big bore doubles, and small bore doubles as well, and I like them all! I simply do not think 10 lbs is too heavy for a 450/400NE 3" double rifle! I have a 22-250 bolt rifle thet weighs 11.5 lbs, and a 243 Win that weighs in at almost 12 lbs, but they are bench rifles. However one could say those two rifles are too heavy for the chamberings so why not have them chambered for 470 Capstick. That would make about as much sense as requireing a 10 lb 450/400 to be re-barreled to 450NE 3 1/4" or 470NE, when the owner wants it chambered for 450/400!

quote:

Originally posted by Donald Soter:
Mac

I totally agree with you. The guns today are being made too damned light IMHO. If a pound or two is a major issue, take it off your waist line!!

Don

You won't even feel 5 pounds "off" your waist, but you sure as hell will feel 2 pounds "in" your hands!

DM

I just weighed my "light" little Model 70 .458 with the 22" barrels. Surprise: With scope and sling it weighs 10.3 pounds!

If someone in their mid-sixties who is about 30 pounds overweight (not 5 pounds) can carry that all over the bush in 90 degree (F) temperatures for six days and then shoot a buffalo, I'm sorta wondering why I started this thread.

quote:

Originally posted by DM:

quote:

Originally posted by Donald Soter:
Mac

I totally agree with you. The guns today are being made too damned light IMHO. If a pound or two is a major issue, take it off your waist line!!

Don

You won't even feel 5 pounds "off" your waist, but you sure as hell will feel 2 pounds "in" your hands!

DM

You hit your hunt in whatever shape you are in - good, bad, in between. I've shown up in all three states. Prior to my current position, I wondered why a guy would show up for a serious, expensive with a "spare tire": now I know, time does not grow on trees and sometimes you gotta choose between family life, making the beans to do the safari and getting as fit as you would like.

But one thing has remained constant: I NEVER wished mt rifle weighed more than it does!

So lets cut through the bullshit: How many of you fans of whate ever weight class have done ANY elephant hunting and how much? Pitch in too buff hunters, but make it clear that your a buff hunter, buff hunting doesn't make the miles and miles that elephant hunting does.

That will winnow out the bullshitters who's doubles are range queeens and those who actually use them for their intended purpose!

Who the hell wants to hump a 450NE or 470 and instead shoot a 400gr bullet? That is just assinine to me!

A quote to remember: Recoil last but a moment, but gravity is forever.

BTW, I know that on this thread there are actual experienced elephant hunters who prefer or at least don't mind heavier rifles, but lets get the breakdown first ahnd.

JPK

If I remember correctly my 450 No2 weighs 11 3/4LBS. It has 28 " barrels and this might be with the Murray buttstock shell carrier with 6 rounds in it.

Now that seems heavy, but it is perfectly balanced and fits me better than any rifle I have ever shot.

I have made shot with this rifle with iron sights [it has no scope], close, far and on running game.

I would not change anything about it.

My 450/400 weighs 10 lbs 2 oz if I remember correctly, with out the scope.

I have made some good shots with with this double as well.

My African hunts were videoed and I even suprised myself how fast my second shot was with these doubles when it was needed.

Now, I like short light rifles too, I use a Blaser R 93 with a 19 3/4" barrel...

But I would not change anything on my big bore doubles.

In fact many of the DRSS folks think my 9,3x74R Chapuis at 7 1/4lbs without scope is too light.

I had one 450-400 3 1/4 hammer rifle that came in at 12.6lbs and balanced very well. It was still 12.6lbs when you carried it though. My current 450-440 3 1/4 is 10lbs 2ounces and is balanced perfectly for me. Recoil with the 12.6 was just a tad more comfortable than the 10.2 but neither was a problem.


Dutch

Ed and Indy et all.
You can get a 8 or 9 pound 450/400 if that's what you want.
Three things dictate this.
Barrel contour, barrel length and the frame size.
The Famars guns are built on frames that were specifically made for a 450/400 frame. That is about the size of a true 375 frame.
Then the barrel contour should start out heavy and taper quickly so the balance stays between the hands.
It is not rocket science but it is necessary for the maker to take the time and the expense to design the gun to be a 450/400 and not a 470 with 450/400 barrels.
That said, there are very few gun makers operating today that actually build a frame scaled to the caliber.

A 7 1/2 lb 450/400 is possible.

Balance is everything as most of you know.
I have held a 450/400 that weighed nine pounds and balanced between my hands. It felt like it weighed 7 pounds. It was a brief love affair.
She was a svelte side lock dressed in a dark smoky stock. It was magic.

I currently have a Zoli 450/400 O&U double with their new Z gun, Boss style action with removable trigger plate locks. It is very well balanced, weighs exactly 8 1/2 pounds and I have it on loan for my season and if it works as well as it appears I will probably try to purchase it from them. The basic rifles list for $9500 with double triggers and are regulated for Hornady ammo.

The recoil of the 450/400 is no more than a 375 and I see no reason a rifle of this caliber should weigh more.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
I currently have a Zoli 450/400 O&U double with their new Z gun, Boss style action with removable trigger plate locks. It is very well balanced, weighs exactly 8 1/2 pounds and I have it on loan for my season and if it works as well as it appears I will probably try to purchase it from them. The basic rifles list for $9500 with double triggers and are regulated for Hornady ammo.

The recoil of the 450/400 is no more than a 375 and I see no reason a rifle of this caliber should weigh more.

Hey Phil, haven't seen your posts around much lately. Get any good bear this year?

IMO, that 450/400NE 3" is a perfect chambering for Alaska, and I hope you buy this rifle, I think it will serve you well in your business. I hope, however, it doesn't look like you 458 WM rifle after one season!

I know that the Blaser S2 Safari is questioned as a DGR but nevertheless here are my actual figures for weight:

Blaser S2 Safari in .500/416 9.25 punds (with Kick-stop removed!)
Same with 1.5-6x42 Kahles CSX scope is 10.6 pounds

The figures Blaser advertises for the S2 Safari regarding weight are way off - the 500/416 having the same smaller contour as the 375 H&H barel sets - but the bigger .416 hole drilled - is actually the lightest option for the S2 Safari.

Balance with the KickStop removed is a little nose heavey but I do not mind that too much.

Cheers, Franz