I'm about to start loading for my 500NE Krieghoff in preparation for an elephant hunt in Zim in August. Through a variety of circumstances I'm getting a late start on this so will need to catch up in my preparation quickly.

My question is to those experienced in the use of this cartridge from actually shooting elephants with it. Which solid bullet(s)- based on your experience with the bullet's performance on elephant- would you recommend I consider for the hunt?

I am thinking of a copper-clad steel-jacketed solid, like the Woodleigh and Hornady DGS - any thoughts on these?

I realize I may need to use several bullets to find the regulation duplicate load but really looking for a recommendation based on bullet terminal performance so I can find a good place to start my firing work.

Thanks for any help provided.

You will love the new Hornadys. The DGS is one fine bullet.

Ditto what Dave said.

6.5, Why not try the CEB BBW#13? I'll be glad to send you a few solids and non cons to try.

Sam

Here are a couple of threads that may be of some value:
Click Here: Double Rifle Bullet of the Future

and
Click Here: Terminal Bullet Performance

But as 465H&H and countless others have said, Woodleigh solids have accounted for an awful lot of elephant with great success.

As far as the Hornady DGS, the bullet testing that Michael458 has done shows it to be a good performer in test media.

Good luck.

I plan to use CEB solids for my elephant in November assuming they regulate well in my DR.

Hands down, thanks to Michael and Sam, the CEB BBW #13. Much greater "straight line" penetration. They're also very pretty.

6.5,

You first need to answer this question. "What do I need my solid to do in elephant?" I would assume the answer would be, "To reach the elephants vitals from any reasonable angle". If loaded up to regulation velocity, all of the bullets mentioned above will do that. Now, will you be hunting trophy bulls, tuskless cows or maybe tusked cows. If you are hunting bulls they will probably not be in herds. The others obviously will be. What will be the chances of a shoot through that will wound or kill an unseen elephant behind your target animal? The FN bullets listed above will all penetrate further then the RN Woodleighs. But do you really need that extra penetration and are you willing to give up a sure shot chance at the trophy of a life time if there is another elephant standing behind it? Only you can make that decision.

465H&H

6.5 if you perform a search you will find my post on loads and targets for my Blaser S2 in 500 NE.
Peter

Woodleigh Solid x 10 = 10 Dead Elephants

Seems I've received confirmation that the Woodleigh Solid and Hornady DGS are good places to start. Thanks all, time for me to get to work and have some fun with the 500.

Ele aside...shoot some buff with frontal chest shots with both round and flat-nose solids. The flat nose solids will out penetrate for sure...but...reaction to the shot is drastically different greatly favoring the flat point...they hit like the hammer-of-Thor!

On ele...round nose solids deviate their paths sometimes...not good for frontal brain shot...especially off angle ones. I admit...the percentage chance is low.

In big rifles (.458 & greater)...I rarely shoot anything but solids. I carry a few softs in case I want to shoot into a herd of buff...but shoot most game with flat-point solids. However, MJines and .465 have both shot more ele than I.

It is no longer a mystery as to which type of solid is superior, in straight line penetration, consistency of depth of penetration, trauma transfer, and dependability. Flat Nose Solids. Not all of these are created equal we must keep in mind. Nose profile, meplat size, radius edges of the meplat, twist rate, velocity, construction, are all factors that effect terminal penetration, both in test medium and animal tissue. We have learned that Nose Profiles are very important, bullets such as the BBW#13, North Fork, and the now discontinued Barnes Banded are the top 3 profiles in my opinion. Meplat size needs to be a minimum of 65% of caliber to stabilize, even in poor twist rates, terminal stability. A rounded radius is advantageous for deeper penetration. Fast Twist rates win the day in terminal stability, and can assist less than desirable meplat size bullets. Velocity does increase stability. Construction is a very important factor when driving through heavy bone.

I can't imagine going to the field, on a very important hunt, and coming up short on the bullet! Use the best bullet available, when it comes down to it, the bullet is the # 1 component of any hunt, the bullet does all the work! I can't fathom why one would compromise when it comes to bullet choice. Of course all of them will work! That is not the point. What is the most dependable, consistent, and the bullet you can count on when things get tough! Right now I see only two reasonable choices, CEB BBW#13s and North Fork, anything else is LESS.

Michael

quote:

I can't imagine going to the field, on a very important hunt, and coming up short on the bullet! Use the best bullet available, when it comes down to it, the bullet is the # 1 component of any hunt, the bullet does all the work! I can't fathom why one would compromise when it comes to bullet choice. Of course all of them will work! That is not the point. What is the most dependable, consistent, and the bullet you can count on when things get tough! Right now I see only two reasonable choices, CEB BBW#13s and North Fork, anything else is LESS.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
I can't imagine going to the field, on a very important hunt, and coming up short on the bullet! Use the best bullet available, when it comes down to it, the bullet is the # 1 component of any hunt, the bullet does all the work! I can't fathom why one would compromise when it comes to bullet choice. Of course all of them will work! That is not the point. What is the most dependable, consistent, and the bullet you can count on when things get tough! Right now I see only two reasonable choices, CEB BBW#13s and North Fork, anything else is LESS.Michael

Michael,

I read through the threads describing your experimental work and resuts. Clearly very systematically and carefully done work. I follow your argument and agree with your conclusions on bullet shape, based on the experimental data.

The spreadsheet you showed in the current thread seems to show similar penetration for the Barnes Banded Solid and the CEB #13 fired in the same cartridge under apparently similar test conditions. The Hornady DGS is very close in penetration, despite its more conventional construction. Am I interpreting the data correctly?

Conceptually, I don't disagree with your statement about the bullet being the most important component. My only difference with your conclusion is that there are "only 2 choices," appearing to disregard the DG's or the Barnes Banded Solid's straight line penetration. Am I understanding the test results for those 2 bullets correctly?

Although others may disagree, there is also the reality check of value - either the Barnes or Hornady seem to offer very similar performance to the CEB for about 1-2% of the price. Not necessarily an insurmountable problem for the actual hunting projectile, but a significant consideration when practice and development firings are taken into account. If I read the prices of the CEBs correctly, each bullet is $200 - is that correct? So 18 bullets is equivalent for the trophy fee on a tuskless epephant.

I greatly appreciate the work you've published as it seems definitive in demonstrating the stable penetrating advantage of the FP design which incorporates the shape features you've incorporated into the CEB. Very impressive work.

Hopefully further production refinements will lower production costs and allow the CEB to become the gold standard. Hope you'll keep up the great work.

Hey 6.5.
I think the price is more like $2.00-$2.50 per bullet (box of 18 for these prices).

Click this link:
CEB prices


Whatever you choose - good luck and great hunting!

6.5

Whoa buddy--$200 per Bullet? No man, Not correct. Full retail on the .510s is around $2 each--Not $200! Not cheap by bullet standards and not as cheap as the Hornady, but a long way from being an issue. I also buy from CEB and and can get some discounts on the bullets, and can pass that on to you as well.

I have always been a Barnes Banded fan, good profile, good meplat size at 65%, but the problem is this, Barnes has discontinued the Banded flat nose bullet! SO they are not as available, and at some point, I don't think they will be available at all. I have done a lot of shooting with the Barnes Banded, always finding it superb in the field on buffalo and elephant. But that is a moot point now. While a good profile, it is not as good a nose profile as the BBW#13.

The Hornady DGS is trying. It comes up short in two categories, meplat size and construction. If you look at the chart above you will see some varying penetration depths. Why? Meplat size is not quite large enough to stabilize itself with 1;15 twist rates, and in some doubles probably 1:18 or slower. Meplat size needs to be 65% of caliber to overcome slower twist rates. It's close, but not quite there.


Go to this page on the B&M site, I think it covers a good bit of information, easy to understand.

http://www.b-mriflesandcartrid...d---FMJ-Bullets.html

Michael

It amazes me of how many people book a $20000 to $50000 hunt and then want to buy the cheapest bullet they can find. Not that there haven't been tons of animals shot with RN solids of many makes, but why not use the best bullet available for the job at hand no matter the cost. I know the CEBs don't cost $200 each. Many of the better solids are $2.00 to $4.00 each. Saving money on the ammo is the least on my mind.
I want the very best bullet I can have and if it is a solid I want it to shoot straight through whatever I'm shooting at if possible, or at least have the best chance to do so.
If the trophy fee on a bull elephant is $25000 or more whats even $200 per bullet if it gets the job done. Yes cheaper bullets have done it and I've shot elephant and buffalo with them but how many have been lost because of a cheap bullet or poorly designed one. How many of those brain shots you see that fail to hit the brain are the aim or the bullet not staying on coarse.

Sam

quote:

The Hornady DGS is trying. It comes up short in two categories, meplat size and construction.

And...bearing surface...IMHO!!!

quote:

It amazes me of how many people book a $20000 to $50000 hunt and then want to buy the cheapest bullet they can find. Not that there haven't been tons of animals shot with RN solids of many makes, but why not use the best bullet available for the job at hand no matter the cost. I know the CEBs don't cost $200 each. Many of the better solids are $2.00 to $4.00 each. Saving money on the ammo is the least on my mind.

Woodleighs are great for practice!!!

Woodleigh softs are great for practice! I won't polute my doubles again with Woodleigh solids. Too high strain on barrels.

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
It amazes me of how many people book a $20000 to $50000 hunt and then want to buy the cheapest bullet they can find. Not that there haven't been tons of animals shot with RN solids of many makes, but why not use the best bullet available for the job at hand no matter the cost. I know the CEBs don't cost $200 each. Many of the better solids are $2.00 to $4.00 each. Saving money on the ammo is the least on my mind.
I want the very best bullet I can have and if it is a solid I want it to shoot straight through whatever I'm shooting at if possible, or at least have the best chance to do so.
If the trophy fee on a bull elephant is $25000 or more whats even $200 per bullet if it gets the job done. Yes cheaper bullets have done it and I've shot elephant and buffalo with them but how many have been lost because of a cheap bullet or poorly designed one. How many of those brain shots you see that fail to hit the brain are the aim or the bullet not staying on coarse.

Sam

I may have misread the prices, but 2 minutes ago on the CEB .500 500gr Solid Brass Bullet the price listed is $3609.00 for a box of 18 If I've misunderstood the price or confused the bullet, then I retract the information.

I'm used to buying Barnes Banded Solids and Woodleighs for practice and hunting for my mediums (375, 416, 404) and 458, so understand the pricing of premium bullets. I'm definitely not looking to either save money on bullets or use the lowest cost projectile, just expressing surprise at what I think I'm seeing on the CEB website. No intent to cause controversy.

I appreciate all the advice and will not stir further controversy with additional posts on this topic, after this one. Thanks to all and to Michael in particular for his research and for sharing your discoveries.

[/QUOTE]

I may have misread the prices, but 2 minutes ago on the CEB .500 500gr Solid Brass Bullet the price listed is $3609.00 for a box of 18 [/QUOTE]

6.5, WOW, I think there was a MAJOR typo on that site.

quote:

I may have misread the prices, but 2 minutes ago on the CEB .500 500gr Solid Brass Bullet the price listed is $3609.00 for a box of 18 If I've misunderstood the price or confused the bullet, then I retract the information.

6.5 you are correct, I promise it's a typo! HEH HEH..... I would have another heart attack if I saw that too! LOL.......

http://www.b-mriflesandcartrid...llets-Available.html


This is from my website, go down until you see the .510s. They are listed at $36.08 per box of 18. Which is retail, Dan probably meant $36.09 per box. LOL.....

But I can give discount even off of that, this price is retail. LOL..... I think I must send Dan a note that his bullets are a bit expensive!

Please, no controversy, stay with us!

Michael

No question, there are a lot of great bullets out there today. However, before we throw Woodleighs out the window, let's wait and see how many of the new comers survive as long as the Woodleighs and their first cousin the Kynochs have survived.

Been happy with Woodleigh FMJ's.

Hey Mike

Well I threw any and all RN solids out the window a few years ago. While not a Woodleigh, some RN solids I was using I actually watched them take some turns and veers, much to my dismay. So this prompted the investigation that brings me to where I am today. Fortunately I need not wait a 100 yrs to see if the FN solids are "solid performers", I already know this as fact. I also really don't want to wait around and see, as their survival is not as important to me as being able to accomplish the mission in which I embark upon, and taking yet another factor out of the equation that could cause me to fail my mission while in the field. I prefer a bit more control over some of these things. I am somewhat of an uncompromising SOB with some things, and proper bullet choice is one of them. Oh, I know, the Woodleighs have always worked for you, for others, and I have even had RN solids work for me on elephant and buffalo. But that is neither here nor there and really is of little consequence, as it only takes one failure to be a catastrophe. The potential exists for this to occur. It has occurred, and will occur again. My mission, for myself only, is to reduce that potential for failure. It is my belief based on test work, and field work as well, that a good flat nose solid reduces this potential. I am not picking at Woodleigh, as stated, even Woodleigh has come out with their own FN Solid, the hydro. I also have shelves full of other Woodleigh softs, but when it comes to a RN solid, one of those will never be with me in the field again, regardless of who makes it. Other than my own personal success in the field, I have no stake in the matter, and folks are most certainly welcome to their own choices. I have made mine, and very well pleased with the outcome.

Again what folks choose to use in the field is up to them, but just because it was used by grandpa don't make it the best there is! Grandpa did not have the choices we have today! If he had, he might have been using a FN Solid? HEH HEH........

Michael

You know, I have been giving this some more thought this morning. Let's suppose, that we are now "Grandpa", and we now have the choice of bullets. For the next 50 yrs or so, we use the FN Solids, they work fine, but still when we think of technology these days, even a bullet is a primitive thing. My god, how long has gunpowder drove bullets out of barrels? Not much of a change over the last 300 yrs or so eh? I think someday, some youngster is going to come to us and say;

Hey old Chap, still shooting those antiquated old style bullets I see! My grandpa was using those old flat nose designs 50 yrs ago, and before that my great great grandpa was using the old round nose solids. Yeah, those were the days for sure. I have this brand new "Laser Guided" bullet we are using now, and can even set the depth of penetration that we need for any given circumstance! How about that old timer? Look here pal, my CEB BBW #13 and my North Forks always worked fine for me, I don't need that new fangled gadgetry you are hocking! Yeah, but if you would have been shooting this bullet, and set the depth of penetration required you would not have had all those dangerous shoot threw situations in the past years, and you can even plug the coordinates in for elephant brain shots, and you cannot miss, nor is there any possibility of the bullet veering off course, even if it does, it corrects itself and gets back on course! That sounds like a lot to have to learn to me! No pops it's easy, just use the coordination calculator included with the ammo attached to your rifle, in a second it's punched in, ready for you to release the trigger, just push these buttons for release!

Well, hmmmmm, I suppose we all may be subject to have some objections to discovery! I think in this case, I would as well! Just a thought!

Michael

My point was not that technological changes are all suspect and that we should stick with old methods just for the sake of tradition. The point is that new things come and go, some survive the test of time and become classics, many do not. I think the Woodleigh/Kynoch bullet design falls into that classic category. They feed and function in almost any rifle, they have been used in double rifles extensively enough to demonstrate that they do not damage barrels, they work consistently on big game, . . . . That is not to say that they are perfect or cannot be improved on. (Personally I find the softs to be a little too soft.) I also think that it is difficult to say at this point that any of the FN bullets would fairly be characterized as classics. There are feeding issues in many (most?) bolt guns, still open issues on the long term impact on double rifle barrels of some variants of the FN bullets, . . . . In a few years maybe it will be the case some or all of the FN bullets are considered classics. That is not denigrating the design, just pointing out reality. But to suggest that someone that chooses RN lead core bullets is someone driving a Model A and listening to Little Orphan Annie on the radio at night while the world whirls by them is a little over the top, in my view.

Mike

HEH HEH,,,,,Must the the medication!

Michael

This one

Woodleigh Hydro 570gr

Michael,

Just to show you that I am not a complete old fuddy duddy (like Will), I had my Heym at the range today. I was shooting 570 grain North Fork Solids on top of 98 grains of RL15 with a F215M primer for approximately 2155 fps. Six shots in just over an inch. That is probably the load I will take to Zim in June for two tuskless. I want to experience the thrill of perfect penetration.

Mike

That is excellent! Damn fine shooting as well! I will be in Zim in June as well. Have buffalo and hippo on the menu. I will be using a mixed bag of CEB and North Fork in the 500 MDM and 458 B&M (Win M70 Of Course). Mix of NonCons and Solids! Shooting good bullets is a great experience, HEH HEH....I am sure you will have a thrill, as will I! Good times these are!

Michael