What are the advantages/disadvantages b/w these two? It seems that brass and bullet cost and availability would favor the 450.

Just as a start, .458 caliber lets

you have the largest bullet supply

and choices. 470 offers loaded ammo

by Federal and reportedly easier resale.

Brass for the 470 is more readily available and generally cheaper than for the 450.

But resale trumps all. It is waaaaay easier to resell a .470 and you will get quite a bit more for it.

It all depends if you are going to keep the rifle or use it a while, and re-sell it!

If you intend keeping the rifle I'd far rather have the 450NE 3 1/4". All one needs do is to simply buy about 200 pieces of brass right off the bat, and use 20 rounds to work up your best load, and use that 20 pieces to do all your practice, and keep the rest fresh to load for hunting. .458 bullets are no problem, and the 470NE will not do anything the 450NE will not do just as well!

If, as others have said, you want to take the rifle to Africa a couple times, then sell it, then the 470NE is the one to buy! Ammo is very expencive for factory, and even if handloading. Bullets must be ordered, unless you have a store in your area that does a big business with safari hunters. Ammo as well will usually have to be ordered, and Federal factory, with TB solids sells for $250 per 20 rounds. Top this with the fact that you will pay a premium to buy a 470NE to start with, and you have a wide margin between the two, not only when buying the rifle, but feeding it as well. To me if you keep a 470NE rifle for very long, the difference in origenal price, the cost of feeding it, combined with shipping, and cost of bullets, will more than outweigh the ease of re-sale, IMO. Personally I'd rather have the 450NE, or 450#2NE than a 470Ne double. In fact I have a 470NE double, and I love it, but I'd trade it for a 450NE, or 450#2NE in like shape in a heart beat, simply because of bullet availability!

After looking at all the double rifle loadings I am having a 450 NE built by Butch Searcy. I can't imagine someone buying a gun using it and then selling it. Have the first 22 I that I received at 12 years of age. Plan on passing the double on to my son's to use in the future. As MacD37 stated there is a lot of different 45 cal bullets and brass is available. Will be much cheaper to reload than the 470 and will do everything a 470 can do. It can also be made on a slimmer platform than the 470.
The fact that you are buying a double is admirable in itself, whatever the caliber.

a little offtopic, but i have a Ruger nr 1 in .450 NE, and its a great rifle, cheap bullets and all. i have Woodleigh 480 grs SN , 350 grains SP , 400 grs custom Norwegian PBP copper hollowpint, a mix between Barnes X and GSC , and some more which i will get soon.

The rifle was used when i got it ,and he had thought long and hard about the two cartridges of 450 and 470, he shoose the .450 because he wanted to use it and shoot a bit with it, and the 458 bullets are cheaper than the .470 bullets.

The rifle would probably go to Africa twice at the most, but would be used frequently on bears - and maybe a moose or two. I don't intend to sell, but you never know.

I've heard that you can build a 450 lighter than the 470. Why? I've shot the 450 but not the 470; is there that much diff in recoil?

Driftwood, does Butch recommend going lighter with the 450?

I use a 470NE at the moment but will sell it after this up coming Ele hunt to help finance a new tool-toy in the form of a 450/400.
I never had a problem buying good WOODLEIGH bullets for it and am very happy with the NORMA cases that are avaliable for it.
I dont think you would see much difference between the 450NE and the 470NE.
OZHUNTER

Weight of the rifle will be 10 to 10 1/2 pounds so I think weight wise they are similar but the action is slimmer and not as bulky as the 470, 500, 577 etc. With all the NE's it is wise to have a little weght but I would give Butch a call or talk to him at SCI and get the answer. This is a new adventure for me, like you, as I stated earlier I looked at these calibers and read all I could over many months before making my decision. It just made sense to shoot a 450 since it did everything a 470 does in a slimmer package.

NOTE: the key word in ozhunter's post is "...A-F-T-E-R I return from an elephant hunt...".

That's your answer. I have to agree (again) with 500 Grain's post, and add one thing. If you have a nickel's worth of concern re cost...you need to just buy a CZ in 458 Lott for $800...look at all the money you'd save then. I think this is the first post I have ever seen where a guy was talking about buying a double rifle and the cost of components figured into a caliber decision.

Rich
DRSS

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
I think this is the first post I have ever seen where a guy was talking about buying a double rifle and the cost of components figured into a caliber decision.

Rich
DRSS

Rich, I'd say anyone who buys a double rifle WITHOUT considering the cost of feeding it, is a fool, or so wealthy he can simply order all the ammo he wants to waste on stumps, and jackrabbits for practice!

The cost is sometimes, if not always, the reason a guy doesn't do a lot of shooting of his DGR before he gets in front of a Lion, or Ele coming down on his butt, and then has to think about every move, before takeing it, instead of working on the instinct, that practice brings!

The availability of Bullets from Joe's country gun shop, out on rural route 9, is a real plus, at times, as well!

I've been on both sides of the fence so to say, I was going to buy a gun from Butch in 450 caliber for all of the above mentioned reasons over the 470. I CHANGED MY MIND and ordered the 470. One of the main reasons, if you go to Africa or even Alaska and your ammo gets seperated from your gun, your up the proverbial creek with no paddle. If you have a 470 you can most likely find some ammo somewhere. And that's another reason why I did not choose a 500NE over the 470NE. For the record, I like the 450NE and the 500NE over the 470 but the English government messed up my picnic more than a few decades ago when they banned the 45 caliber, and no small thanks to Federal ammo for making the 470 king of the hill. I am able to shoot my 470 at 52cents a shot when it comes to practice and tipping over thin skinned game and numerous varmints. 45grains of AA5744 with 500 grain hard cast bullet equals 1500 fps and it shoots three inches lower at 50 yds (albeit a wider group at 3 inches) than my Swift and TBS loads at 2130 fps. So, as far as shooting cost goes it's not an issue with either caliber (450 or 470) using the above powder and some good hard cast bullets.

if you plan to shoot hundreds of rounds a month(or even a year ) the cost of components in 458 are cheaper. and may influence your decision.

but realistically - you can buy a factory made 470 merkel backed by a big company for about $8,000 dealer cost right now, before price increase. that's a good deal !

the 470 will always resell better . you can count on it because the guy any money can buy, craig boddington, says so. " everybody wants a 470". and he is right.

loaded ammo availability , esp on safari is no problem with the 470. the 450 you may get lucky and find, but i truly pity those souls going on safari with the obsolete 450/400 - they haven't a prayer of finding -any - ammo if theirs goes astray.

stick with a winner unless you want to spend all your time at the loading bench.

The price of 470 ammo and components may be coming down. I heard today at the DSC that Norma is going to start selling 470 NE ammo in their PH line starting this year.

Other calibers to be offered include a 450 grain .416 Rigby and the 404 Jeff.

quote:

Originally posted by tomo577:
you can buy a factory made 470 merkel backed by a big company for about $8,000 dealer cost right now, before price increase.

Where?

quote:

Originally posted by tomo577:
if you plan to shoot hundreds of rounds a month(or even a year ) the cost of components in 458 are cheaper. and may influence your decision.

but realistically - you can buy a factory made 470 merkel backed by a big company for about $8,000 dealer cost right now, before price increase. that's a good deal !

the 470 will always resell better . you can count on it because the guy any money can buy, craig boddington, says so. " everybody wants a 470". and he is right.

loaded ammo availability , esp on safari is no problem with the 470. the 450 you may get lucky and find, but i truly pity those souls going on safari with the obsolete 450/400 - they haven't a prayer of finding -any - ammo if theirs goes astray.

stick with a winner unless you want to spend all your time at the loading bench.

Why anyone would depend on factory ammo in a big bore double escapes me. Very, VERY few double rifle users do so. I know lots of double rifle shooters, and I don't know of a single one that does. Availability of factory ammo simply isn't an issue. Availability of components, yes. But $10/round factory ammo? That's silly.

How a guy could have as much trouble keeping up with his ammo as tomo seems to have is equally baffling.
------------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

These posts are so fickle it is quite entertaining.

Every month or so it is some new miracle and the old stuff is crap!

For a while the 404 Jeffery was better than any 416 ever designed or put into production (bullet availability be damned).

Then along comes the another miracle cartridge, the 450/400.

Now the 450 NE is better than the 470 NE, for a multitude of reasoned considerations.

Ha!

The 470 NE is now crap. I need to write this down.

I haven't read anything saying the 470 is crap. I think the discussion is about whether the 450 is cheaper to load, get components etc. I myself have purchased 200 cases, 600 woodleigh 480 grain bullets9solid and soft) , powder I have along with primers and I won't get the gun till August. Even Boddington has stated if he was to get a double he would want it in 450 NE. Its like shooting any caliber it comes down to preferences, I choose the 450 because it was the first and I always liked slimmer ladies. By the way on my Tanzania 21 day hunt my PH will also be shooting a 450 NE, no worry about misplacing my ammo or loosing it.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
These posts are so fickle it is quite entertaining.

Every month or so it is some new miracle and the old stuff is crap!

For a while the 404 Jeffery was better than any 416 ever designed or put into production (bullet availability be damned).

Then along comes the another miracle cartridge, the 450/400.

Now the 450 NE is better than the 470 NE, for a multitude of reasoned considerations.

Ha!

The 470 NE is now crap. I need to write this down.

Will you're not that naive! You know there isn't ten cents worth of difference between the 470NE, and the 450NE ballisticly. The 470NE, 476, and the like, would never have existed if the 450s were not outlawed back in 1909! The reason they went larger by a little is so many of the of the old 450 doubles could be re-bored, and re-regulated without haveing to rebarrel. This saved time getting these rifles back in action. That is the only reason the 470s/475s even exist today.

That is not to say they are crap, because they most assuredly are not, but that is not to say the .450s are crap either, and there are advantages, today, in owning a .450NE especially for an American, who has such a supply of .458 componants, and unlike some other countries where the rules are a little tighter on guns & ammo!

As far as the 450/400 goes, it has always been a sleeper, and it is a misunderstood, and under appreciated chambering, and still is to some extent. Your daddy said that 50 yrs ago!

IMO, all NE cartridges from 9.3X74R to 577NE are good, and all have their pluses, and minuses, and the fact is, there are some that simply seem to do things all out reason for what one would think, when looking at them! I have, and use a 470NE double, and I love it, but I'm not fooled by the press's puting wings of Angels on it! I'd be just as happy with a 450NE 3 1/4" in a double that weighs a 1/2, or 3/4 pound less!

quote:

Originally posted by driftwood:I think the discussion is about whether the 450 is cheaper to load, get components etc.

I think this is exactly what the discussion is about. I didn't see anyone dissing the 470 - in fact, it appears that in spite of what some see as a few disadvantages (see above) many see the 470 as the best answer. If there had been a clear answer, I wouldn't have asked the question.

Mac,

IMHO, and most of the rest of the world's the 450 is not a "sleeper" it's in a coma!

Let me repeat, in smaller words: if you can shell out $8K and up for a DR, an extra $200 per year to load and shoot 300 rounds of 470 vs 450 is peanuts! If you have time to shoot more than 300 rounds of 470 a year then you make enough $$$ to cover it. Since a lifetime supply of good 470 bullets is about what you will pay for a black bear hunt in Canada, excluding the cuban cigars you pick up and the Screech (just a plug for you "newfs").
Personally, I do not see DR owners as load junkies either, like us bolt guys. Any of you guys shooting DR's got a notebook of loads to choose from, like the guy who has a 30-06 with nine different bullet weights and velocities for everything from plinking loads with cast bullets to 125gr BTs for Rockchucks, to 150's for antelope, to 165's for deer, to 180's for elk and black bear, to the 220's for moose and big bears? I know one, O-N-E guy who has two loads for his double rifle. It's a .500NE 3", and he worked up a good 450gr load at 1800fps for plinking (now there's an oxymoron...plinking loads for a .500 NE) and letting other people shoot the rifle once. It shoots under 3" at 50 yds and shoots to point of aim.

Can one of you explain how laying out the cash for a DR is "No Problemo!", but affording a couple hundred bullets is?

just sign me curious

Rich

Also, anyone concerned about the cost of practice bullets for the 470 NE can used cast bullets or pistol bullets (for .475 Linebaugh) loaded with 5744.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Mac,

IMHO, and most of the rest of the world's the 450 is not a "sleeper" it's in a coma!

Let me repeat, in smaller words: if you can shell out $8K and up for a DR, an extra $200 per year to load and shoot 300 rounds of 470 vs 450 is peanuts! If you have time to shoot more than 300 rounds of 470 a year then you make enough $$$ to cover it. Since a lifetime supply of good 470 bullets is about what you will pay for a black bear hunt in Canada, excluding the cuban cigars you pick up and the Screech (just a plug for you "newfs").
Personally, I do not see DR owners as load junkies either, like us bolt guys. Any of you guys shooting DR's got a notebook of loads to choose from, like the guy who has a 30-06 with nine different bullet weights and velocities for everything from plinking loads with cast bullets to 125gr BTs for Rockchucks, to 150's for antelope, to 165's for deer, to 180's for elk and black bear, to the 220's for moose and big bears? I know one, O-N-E guy who has two loads for his double rifle. It's a .500NE 3", and he worked up a good 450gr load at 1800fps for plinking (now there's an oxymoron...plinking loads for a .500 NE) and letting other people shoot the rifle once. It shoots under 3" at 50 yds and shoots to point of aim.

Can one of you explain how laying out the cash for a DR is "No Problemo!", but affording a couple hundred bullets is?

just sign me curious

Rich

Typical! Why is there always someone who can't disagree , without sarcasm?

Like most bolt shooters, you miss the point all together! That is probably my fault, in not makeing my post cleer enough for you! I'll try again.

First the man was asking for reasons to buy one over the other, and what I posted are some of the reasons, but I guess that was lost on you, as was your mistake in quoteing me as saying a 450NE was a sleeper. That statement was in regard to the 450/400 NE 3", and 3 1/4", and it was not only a sleeper to bolt rifle shooters, but to double rifle guys as well.

The double rifle shooter has to handload to get the best from his rifle,just like a bolt rifle man, not to save money, though it does that as well, just like it does in a bolt rifle. Haven't you ever heard the old saying , "You will not save money by handloading, you'll just shoot three times as much for the same price!" To me that is a plus worth intertaining!

Double rifle shooters are not handload junkies???? Nobody who knows anything about double rifles would make such a statement!

The fact is, working up a proper handload for a double rifle is far more complex than for a bolt rifle, so you are wrong, all REAL double rifle shooters are "REAL" handloading junkies!

It makes no difference whether you have one load, or twenty loads, they still must be worked up, and loaded, and the bigest difference between the .458 dia, and the .475, besides price, is instant availability, from any gun shop that has handload supplies.

Your comment is like saying because a guy can buy an automobile that may cost $8K, which, BTW, would be a worn out piece of junk, he should be happy to pay $12.50 per gallon for gas,to feed it, because that is the cost per shot from Federal solid ammo, for a 470NE!

I'm sure if you went into your gunstore, and your bullets were not on the shelf, and your only choice was to have to order bullets, at twice the price,and wait a week to get them, you would simply say, "WELL I'D BE GLAD TO, Sir!" YEH......... RIGHT!

Why is it that you think everyone who owns a double rifle is rich? I hear that, all the time, from guys who have a $25,000 bass boat in the garage, along side a $45,000 4X4 truck, and is only willing to pay $500 for a rifle, with a Tasco 3x9 scope on it, and complain about that,while it may be the only thing between him and LIGHTS OUT! Yet, somehow, you think I should pay $250 per box of 20 rds for my ammo because my rifle cost $8K !

your comparison is invalid on face. Try this one, which is more inline with the price differential between doubles and boltguns:

If you can afford a Porsche, you can afford to pay $4+ a gallon for high octane gasoline. If you own a Porsche you should be embarrassed to pull up at the self-serv pump and put $2.50 unleaded regular in the tank. A well built boltgun can be had for about one-fourth the cost of the same quality in a double rifle. Except there are no cheap DR's.

I am still waiting for somebody to tell me they really bought a 450 in lieu of a 470 because they couldn't afford the bullets... I would be waaaaay too embarrased to try and pass that one off. Even my wife wouldn't buy that one. "uh, honey? I'm going to shell out $xx,000 dollars for a new double rifle, but I am going to offset that big ticket item by getting one in a cheaper to reload bore diameter. I'll save almost %400 a year...that should pay it off in about 73 years at 300 rounds a year...".

Don't be silly...

Rich
DRSS

quote:

Personally, I do not see DR owners as load junkies either, like us bolt guys. Any of you guys shooting DR's got a notebook of loads to choose from, like the guy who has a 30-06 with nine different bullet weights and velocities for everything from plinking loads with cast bullets to 125gr BTs for Rockchucks, to 150's for antelope, to 165's for deer, to 180's for elk and black bear, to the 220's for moose and big bears? I know one, O-N-E guy who has two loads for his double rifle. It's a .500NE 3", and he worked up a good 450gr load at 1800fps for plinking (now there's an oxymoron...plinking loads for a .500 NE) and letting other people shoot the rifle once. It shoots under 3" at 50 yds and shoots to point of aim.

Rich - all I can tell you is just having started reloading for doubles within the last 12 months, it is more complicated than reloading for a bolt rifle. With a double, you are basically trying to get two separate rifles to hit at the same regulation spread.

Now, if you get a load that shoots great with a certain powder and bullet, that is going to be a keeper load. But, that does not stop me from working up other loads.

I work with at least 4 different primers, 4 different kinds of brass and no less than 8 bullet makers. Powder selection is a real chore. Just looking at what I have, it appears that there are more than 8 types of powder I fool with. Most DR cases have excess capacity which keeps the pressures down. If you use older powders, you need to decide whether to add a filler, and which one is suitable. Or finding a powder that fills more of the case without increasing pressure.

While there is a wider bullet weight selection for bolt rifles, generally speaking, we deal with manufacturers on 4 continents.

As you well know, a different case, with a different primer can have varying results even with the same bullets and powder charge. Add in the other variables, like bullet type and powder type, and you need a spread sheet.

And it has to shoot the same in two barrels, not just one.

With the bigger bores, you can't shoot 100 rounds at the range for a load workup. So it takes longer to work up a double load.

And once you get that, it does not mean it is going to work in another double of the same caliber. Since recoil is built into the regulation of the point of aim, anything that impacts recoil rifle to rifle impacts the load; like the weight or balance of the rifle.

A double rifle shines for up close and personal work. You can certainly make killing shots out to 300 yards or so, but most of the work is much closer, on game that does not run away from the shot, meaning less margin for error. Almost all of the double shooters I know believe in packing their own parachute. Reloading is key.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
your comparison is invalid on face. Try this one, which is more inline with the price differential between doubles and boltguns:

If you can afford a Porsche, you can afford to pay $4+ a gallon for high octane gasoline. If you own a Porsche you should be embarrassed to pull up at the self-serv pump and put $2.50 unleaded regular in the tank. A well built boltgun can be had for about one-fourth the cost of the same quality in a double rifle. Except there are no cheap DR's.

I am still waiting for somebody to tell me they really bought a 450 in lieu of a 470 because they couldn't afford the bullets... I would be waaaaay too embarrased to try and pass that one off. Even my wife wouldn't buy that one. "uh, honey? I'm going to shell out $xx,000 dollars for a new double rifle, but I am going to offset that big ticket item by getting one in a cheaper to reload bore diameter. I'll save almost %400 a year...that should pay it off in about 73 years at 300 rounds a year...".

Don't be silly...

Rich
DRSS

Sharpshooter, you just post without reading, The big reason I'm trying to get across to you, seemingly without success, is, the .458s are MORE AVAILABLE, and there is a far better selection! Hello WALL! BYE

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
Also, anyone concerned about the cost of practice bullets for the 470 NE can used cast bullets or pistol bullets (for .475 Linebaugh) loaded with 5744.

500g's, what brands and weights of cast and jacketed pistol bullets do you refer to?

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
I'd be just as happy with a 450NE 3 1/4" in a double that weighs a 1/2, or 3/4 pound less!

Good luck finding someone who could or would do that!

antlers - look at the forums and gunsamerica and gunbroker for an affordable 470 merkel. they are still around but drying up fast.

dealer cost is $8796 now and volume dealer is $8246 so find a volume dealer who has a few in stock.

i have a new unfired one with $1,000 upgrade wood for sale at $9,000

regarding tomo 's ammo - i am never short of ammo- ever. superior keeps me adequately supplied.

as for shooting lead bullets forget it . the recoils isn't the same, they don't shoot to the sights or same point of impact. but their true value is.... THEY ARE CHEAP !!!

so if you really don't care how your rifle shoots use cheap lead bullets - great practice and confidence building - not. but CHEAP

If it was for me, I would buy the .470 NE. Having owned several .470's and a dozen or so .450's over the years, for whatever reasons I just came to prefer the .470 variation.

I guess I could safely generalize that the average weight of my .470's was about a half-pound heavier than the average weight of the .450's, though a couple of the .450's were built markedly lighter. Anyway, my point is that the felt recoil seemed less "sharp" from the .470's....a tiny bit more of a shove than a bite.

Then too, I always felt the .470's penetrated plenty well to be adequate, and I liked the idea of a bullet which is a bit bigger in diameter before expansion even begins. Might not be true, but I always felt that made it slap things harder.

Even though the .450 was on the scene earlier than the .470, somehow I always ended up liking the .470 and the .500 better. If I wanted to go to a smaller bore, which I did on occasion, I preferred the .450/.400, or a bolt gun in .404 Jeffery.

One thing is for sure, though. You WILL like whichever you get. There is a certain feel, handiness, and cachet to any QUALITY double which just isn't there in anything else except MAYBE a top drawer single shot in comparable rimmed cartridges.

My opinion, YMMV.