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I thinking purchasing a 450/400 double. The rifle is regulated with Kynoch Ammo. Does anyone know the ballistics on Kynoch's 450/400? Is it that different from Hornady's 450/400 ammo? Thanks!! Go Duke!! | ||
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Hornady factory DGX and DGS are loaded to just under 2050 fps with 80 gr. H4831SC, Fed. 215 primers. Each lot of their ammo is tested and specs are available from Hornady on each lot. Don't know what bullet, powder or primer Kynoch is using. As my gun is supposed to be regulated with Hornady, I have been trying different loads. Settled on 81gr H4831SC and 400gr. Woodleighs at 2050. I have an early K-gun that was probably regulated with German RW ammo. Krieghoff can't tell me??? A-Square book "Any Shot You Want" book calls for 2150fps. Don't know if this is a misprint or not, I'm still playing with loads for better regulation but in this current Central Texas heat, very tricky. Get a box of each and try them. If you shoot a lot, call Kynoch and find out their load, or take one of their rounds apart to analyze. | |||
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The 400 gr. bullet is suppose to be going the "original" 2125 fps or it gets more anemic than ever, whether it is from a 30" barrel or a 20" barrel. I suspect that Hornady's 2025 fps in a ? inch barrel, is a decision by the lawyers so that they don't blow up old English guns. At 2125 fps, the muzzle energy is 4105 ft-lbs. At 2025 fps, the muzzle energy drops down to 3728 ft-lbs. That's crowding a 300 WM. No wonder everyone thinks a 10 pound 450/400 is so pleasant to shoot.  ------------------------------- Will / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor, GOA, NAGR _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped. “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ If anything be of note, let it be he was once an elephant hunter, hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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I am assuming this is a 450/400 3", is that correct? If so, the Kynoch web site shows their ammo running 2125 fps but that is out of a 30 inch barrel. You don't say what your barrel length is but if it was regulated with Kynoch ammo you need to subtract about 10-13 fps for every inch of barrel less. This if your rifle has a 24 inch barrel it will probably regulate somewhere between 2047 and 2065 fps. It sounds like the Hornaday ammo will be pretty close in your rifle but you would have to shoot it to be sure. The Hornaday ammo would not regulate in my .470. My rifle was regulated with Wolfgang Romney ammo and the Hornaday stuff is a just too fast. Dave DRSS Chapuis 9.3X74 Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL Krieghoff 500/.416 NE Krieghoff 500 NE "Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer" "If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition). | |||
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If you are looking at a 450/400 rifle in 3 1/4 and need some ammo I have some Kynoch ammo for a 450/400 3 1/4. It is all of very recent production, new and un-opened in the box. I have 50 rds (10 boxes of 5 rds) and 30 rds (6 boxes of 5 rds). Let me know if you are interested and I can send more details. Good luck with your quest for a 450/400. Sincerely, Jack | |||
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Velocities are close. As Kynoch and Hornady .450/.400 3" are both sold in Europe, both are loaded to CIP specifications, as required by law there. Standard velocities of 2125 fps with a 400 grain bullet in 30" barrels are possible in in 24" barrels, but not within the CIP pressure limit. Ammunition introduced to the market in CIP countries must be pressure tested in government proof houses before it can be legally sold. Consequently, Kynoch and Hornady load it to original standard, which has never changed. It has nothing to do with lawyers, and the baseless suggestion that it does reflects the poster's ignorance. Further, it would be silly to manufacture non-standard ammunition that has little hope of regulating in the rifles it's intended for. ----------------------------------------- "Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder." | |||
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Piss off. Whether it is within CIP limits or not is not the point. The point is whether you are shooting a pop gun, regardless of CIP. If it is supposedly only yielding 2125 fps in some test chamber with 30" barrels, somewhere, what has that got do do with production guns? To suggest that factory ammo pressure can never safely be exceeded is crap. IF you shoot a 450/400 and the velocity is only 2025 fps you are just kidding yourself that it is any sort of stopper. And bullet penetration starts to nose dive too. ------------------------------- Will / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor, GOA, NAGR _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped. “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ If anything be of note, let it be he was once an elephant hunter, hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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Will: I would like to gently suggest to you that 400 Nitro express is right (but maybe he could have been a little more diplomatic  ) It's all about barrel time and regulation. It can easily be loaded faster but if you do that, chances are it is not going to regulate.The ballistics are indeed anemic. That's why the .500/.416 is so much better  Dave DRSS Chapuis 9.3X74 Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL Krieghoff 500/.416 NE Krieghoff 500 NE "Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer" "If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition). | |||
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Well, I've long since come to expect stupid statements from you, but that's a winner. It's precisely the point here. We're talking about FACTORY AMMUNITION. You said:
...which is an asinine and fundamentally ignorant statement. Hornady and Kynoch adopted CIP (original) standards (2125 fps in 30" barrels, which is 2050 fps in 24" barrels) for two reasons. First, there are a LOT of .450/.400 doubles out there. Doubles are generally dependent on standard ammunition for proper regulation. Hornady and Kynoch both went to a lot of trouble to duplicate original ammunition as closely as possible so that their ammo would regulate in as many guns as possible. Both pressure and velocity tested various lots of late run original Cordite ammunition to get a benchmark. It would be a real bad business decision for them to produce non-standard ammunition that wouldn't regulate in the rifles it's intended for. Just because Willie is dumb enough and arrogant enough to expect it doesn't mean Hornady and Kynoch are that stupid. The second reason both adopted CIP standard is that neither had a choice. Kynoch is in the UK, a CIP member state, and Hornady sells their flanged nitro ammunition in Britain and Europe. Ammunition introduced into the CIP market must be tested by the CIP authorities in order to be approved for sale there. If Maximum Average Pressure exceeds CIP standard, it's rejected, and IT'S ILLEGAL TO SELL IT THERE. At full standard velocity in a non-standard length 24" barrel using H4831, pressure is 4000 PSI over CIP MAP, so it can't be approved. CIP pressure is precisely the point. What part of that simple concept are you too challenged to grasp?
Standard ballistics and max pressures. In the real world, both are important to double rifles.
We're discussing factory ammunition here, and it's real world performance, not Willie's pie in the sky bullshit. Late run Kynoch 60 Cordite ran 2056 fps in their 24" pressure gun. Runs 2060 to 2070 in my 26" barrels. That's been the real world performance of .400 factory ammo in sporting rifles for 110 years. The success in the field with that performance made the .450/.400 the most popular of the over .40 flanged nitro DR cartridges, famed for it's deep, straight line penetration. Revisionist amateur theories are merely amusing.
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What a bitch slap! 577NitroExpress Double Rifle Shooters Society Francotte .470 Nitro Express  If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming... | |||
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Go to WalMart and buy yourself a crown or whatever you want to show that you are the king of doubles or whatever title you want. And I don't give a f**k what CIP or you or anyone else says, the 450/400 in most guns without handloads is a limp dick, and all the specs and arguments won't change it. But mostly you are like 500 grains/Dan McCarthy, always trying to snipe at what I and others might say. I'm not sure how I ever went hunting or got along w/o you! ------------------------------- Will / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor, GOA, NAGR _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped. “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ If anything be of note, let it be he was once an elephant hunter, hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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thats how they screwed up the .404 Jeffery, now its nothing but a different .416 rigby | |||
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Ahh, there! I see the rub! Rusty We Band of Brothers! DRSS, NRA & SCI Life Member "I am rejoiced at my fate. Do not be uneasy about me, for I am with my friends." ----- David Crockett in his last letter (to his children), January 9th, 1836 "I will never forsake Texas and her cause. I am her son." ----- Jose Antonio Navarro, from Mexican Prison in 1841 "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." Thomas Jefferson Declaration of Arbroath April 6, 1320-“. . .It is not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.” | |||
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There you go about about handloads again. The poster asked about the performance of Kynoch factory ammunition, about which none of your posts have been on point.
You're the one that argued about specs. I simply stated that you ignored a long historical record to the contrary, making your argument revisionist.
Other way around, Willie. You love conflict and aren't having fun unless you're being nasty to somebody. Most of us don't come here for that, but you do. Do you ever have a civil conversation with anyone? The subject of this string is about as innocuous as it gets. You didn't post on point because you weren't interested in answering the question. You just wanted to snipe at something you don't like, and you couldn't even do that without baseless speculation about something you know nothing about. You get what you give.
Always the gentleman, eh, Willie? -------------------------------------- "Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder." | |||
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"Hornady and Kynoch both went to a lot of trouble to duplicate original ammunition as closely as possible so that their ammo would regulate in as many guns as possible. Both pressure and velocity tested various lots of late run original Cordite ammunition to get a benchmark. It would be a real bad business decision for them to produce non-standard ammunition that wouldn't regulate in the rifles it's intended for." 400 Nitro Express: I don't mean to hijack the thread. I am sure you are correct about the 450/400 ammo but why do you suppose that Hornaday did not follow the same logic with the .470. I tried some of the Hornaday .470 DGX ammo in my gun and while I didn't chronograph it, I am sure that it was shooting way too fast, perhaps around 2150 in my 24.5 inch barrel. I seriously doubt that it would shoot to regulation in a vintage double or anything regulated with Kynoch ammo. If the 450/400 ammo falls within the Kynoch window, why do you suppose they didn't do the same thing with the .470 ammo? Dave DRSS Chapuis 9.3X74 Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL Krieghoff 500/.416 NE Krieghoff 500 NE "Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer" "If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition). | |||
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Dave: You're right, they didn't. I've had that conversation with them and the explanation is long. I'm up to my butt right now, so I'll get back to you. Short answer is, they elected to perpetuate an error (not theirs) - that they were well aware of - instead of correcting it. You've noticed what's going to happen a lot. For the manufacturers, there's no easy answer. Later. -------------------------------------- "Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder." | |||
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In India. JPK  Free 500grains | |||
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400 Nitro Express: PM sent. Dave DRSS Chapuis 9.3X74 Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL Krieghoff 500/.416 NE Krieghoff 500 NE "Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer" "If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition). | |||
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Dave: Here's the explanation. The .470 was introduced in 1900 and standard internal/external ballistics that you're familiar with have never changed (2125 fps in 31" barrels). Kynoch was the only manufacturer of it in the world for 73 years, with the exception of Eley Brothers, who only listed it for three years early on (they didn't even use the same name for it). Federal introduced .470 ammo in 1989, and completely reinvented the wheel. They claimed 2150 fps in 24" barrels. Even the bore dimensions they used weren't the same. Since Kynoch had shut their doors in 1978, Federal was all there was, and most of the new .470s built since then have been regulated with it. Kynoch ammunition was never loaded to absolute max pressure. Late run Kynoch Cordite seems to run roughly 2000 PSI below CIP MAP. Standard chamber pressure is 2700 BAR/39,160 PSI. Late run Kynoch Cordite .470 runs 2050 fps in a 24" barrel at 37,000 PSI. Federal .470 reference ammo (not over the counter) runs 2150 fps in a 24" barrel, but bang on CIP MAP. Since the Federal velocity is possible - barely - within the pressure limit, and quite a few new rifles have been regulated with it over the last 20 years, but many others built before '89 were regulated with standard ammunition, what to do? Federal ammunition regulates OK in some rifles regulated with Kynoch, but not most, it's too fast. Those I've shot it in crossed, some badly. And standard ammo sometimes regulates OK in rifles regulated with the non-standard Federal, but again, not most. This is the headache that happens when different standards are permitted to develop in double rifle ammunition, and this one isn't Hornady's fault. Hornady wrestled with it. They were distributing packets of both loads at SCI to test, seeking feedback. There's no easy answer. They settled on 2150 fps. You noticed the difference that will be common. While I'm disappointed with their decision, I understand it. They're not just dumping stuff out there to make a quick buck. They're doing their best to get it right. Happily, we don't have this mess with the other flanged nitros. The buzzing fly in all of this is Federal's off the shelf .470 ammo. One off the rack lot did 1900 fps through the same pressure gun. Chris (new guy) ran a new box through a new 24" Heym and got 2240 fps! If you'll peruse the old strings, you'll see that this stuff is not at all consistent between lots, so there's no telling what velocity a double regulated with it will regulate at. It just depends on what the lot used actually did. Hope this answers your question. BTW, Graeme Wright said that he had added some comments about this issue to his coverage of the .470 in the new issue of his book. -------------------------------- "Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder." | |||
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Getting back to the 450/400 for a moment.... In reading about some of the old elephant hunters in Africa that used the 450/400 3 1/4" Nitro Express Magnum or the 450/400 3" [also called the 450/400 Jeffery or just 400 Jeffery], I have never read where anyone made any comments negatively about its performance. I have never found any case where a fella used a 450/400 on one trip, and felt he needed to go to a bigger gun on his next trip. All this mind you with the original ballistics. Also a lot of the Jeffery 450/400's were regulated and used with the Tropical Load, which was of less velocity that the regular loads. I have used a 450/400 3 1/4" on cape buff, bull elephant and lion. My wife shot a big cape buff with it as well. It has more than enough "power". I would not be afraid to take one to Jurassic Park. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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I have shot many thousands of Federal Factory ammo over the last 35 years or so. It is usually my favorite. However as 400Nitro has stated they dropped the ball on their 470. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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Thanks guy! Dave DRSS Chapuis 9.3X74 Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL Krieghoff 500/.416 NE Krieghoff 500 NE "Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer" "If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition). | |||
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You're welcome, Dave. ---------------------------------- "Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder." | |||
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400 NE: When I stopped and chatted with the Feeral reps at the NRA show in St. Louis in 2007 they told me that they loaded RL 15 in their 470 NE cartridges. I have had experience between different lots of this powder. I wonder if that may be the reason for the extreme spread in velocity experienced by those shooting Federal Dutch | |||
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So gents, if one were considering a double for say mostly buffalo and maybe an odd elephant or two, I get the feeling something bigger than the 450/400 is in order? jorge USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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Jorge, I'm no fan of the 450/400, but if buff is the main event and an occasional elephant, the cartridge has much in its favor, if you can find or have built a light weight version. For more than an odd elephant, better to go bigger, imo. 450NE No2, Ian Nychens used the 404 out of neseccity, about the same ballistics as the 450/400's, but couldn't wait to get his hand back on a 450NE. And Taylor, for his short, after thought praise of the 450/400, used a 450NE, 465NE for the lions share of his own ele hunting. Just two examples that sprung to mind, immediately. JPK Free 500grains | |||
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JPK Ian Nyschens favorite rifle was his Rigby 450 No2. It was lost in a river accident. He later acquired a 450 3 1/4" "loaned" to him by D.C. Lilford. Lilford did not want to sell it but he told Ian that he could use it for a season or two. He chose the 450 3 1/4" over a similar double in 465 that Lilford also had. He prefered the 450 Bore. He never liked the 450 3 1/4" near as well as he liked the 450 No2. This he told me in person the last time I was in Harare. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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JPK We have discussed Taylor before. Please re read the story of Great Tana Raid. He took a 450/400 amnd a 465. He used only the 450/400. Late in the trip he loaded some of his 465 ammo to one hunter, and the 465 double to another. They were hunting mainly Rhino and Taylor was shooting elephants for ivory as well. I humbly suggest, if a fella had two doubles, he does not loan out his favorite rifle. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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Dutch: I think so, but I've had the same experience with every powder I've used in doubles. I've actually found canister grade RL 15 a little more consistent between lots than most others. I'm inclined to think that they're not adjusting for variance in density between lots of powder, as most other loaders do. -------------------------------------- "Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder." | |||
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Will, another finding of mine in the past few weeks with Hornady ammo/components for DR's which makes me think your presumption above has some merit. I just bought some Hornady DGS 570 grain bullets for my 500 N.E. the velocities were 125 fps slower than the Woodies and my GS bullets. So I measured the bullet average .509 diameter, not the standard .510 or .511 (Woodies, GS solids, Barnes have) which decreases chamber pressures thus it would make it quite friendly on older English DR barrels. "An individual with experience is never at the mercies of an individual with an argument" | |||
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What's the expression, "I don't have a dog in this fight." Have never own or used a 450/400, will not in the future, and whether someone gets killed using one is of no concern to me! But it just figures that with a tort-lawyer society, every manufactured product going out the door will go through some level of risk review. Most everything will be on the cautious side I suspect. And so your findings are not surprising and may be a good thing, for who knows how many different "500" barrel diameters exist out there. Just add more powder! ------------------------------- Will / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor, GOA, NAGR _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped. “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ If anything be of note, let it be he was once an elephant hunter, hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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Why would they do that? When they tested the effects of oversize bullets (when they were starting the flanged nitro project), they tried .002" oversize bullets in .450/.400 (.410" bullets in a .408" barrel). The increase in pressure was 800 PSI, IIRC, an increase of 2%. They had been concerned about all the .408" rifles out there, but it turned out to be a non-issue with lead core bullets. CIP standard for the .500 Nitro Express bullet is .50984". So you think you've found "lawyer padding" in less than a thou? There's more variance than that in modern barrels. Same with bullets. The .408" Woodleighs I buy are .406-.407". You and Willie have nightmares about lawyers or something? ------------------------------------ "Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder." | |||
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