I would like to thank every one for the great input in my education on double rifles.

In January I bought a Sabatti 9.3x74R Basic my first double rifle. There were 2 to chose from at the Dundee, Mi store I chose the one with the best target. I bought 5 boxes of Hornady ammo, all I need was the weather to break, well the snow melded in May time to break the Sabatti in.

Per what I read here that rifle bench shooting is not the way to go with a double. So I made a frame so I could stand up and shoot. Wearing a light leather glove on my left hand so not to burn my fingers wrapped firmly around on the forearm. Resting my hand on a sand bag to steady my shots at a 50 meter target.

Well the guy in Italy must be one hell of a better marksman than me. The gun shot right barrel 4" high 2" to the left in a 1 1/2" group for each barrel. What I'am saying the barrels crossed at 20 meters. I tried to even mount a scope on the gun it helped a little, shrinking the groups, but still crossing at 20 meters. 60 rounds and 3 shooting sessions.

Then I though maybe try to reload some rounds to slow the ammo down from a 2280 fps, to stop crossing. Got the RCBS dies out lubed up a case and just about had to stand on the press to size the case. When I compared a fired case to a new you could see how much larger the fired case was by eye.

That was it, I contacted CCMDoc for some advise on what I could do. He advised me to contact Dundee Gun Manager and there should be no problem to correct the problems. THANKS Paul

I called Jeff Morse 7/6, he said Cabela's will do what ever I want, made a appointment for 7/8 to meet him. I received a full refund.

Now the hunt for a new double!

Seems like getting into the gray area.

'yote wacker....pm sent

Seems folks are finally learning that the words, "CHEAP and "DOUBLE RIFLES", don't belong in the same sentence!

..................................

Sorry to hear that.


Couple of questions.

Did the Sabatti come with a test target and what did it look like compared to how it actually shot ?

Were the muzzles / barrels ground out at all.

.

Consider a Chapuis or Merkel when you begin your search.

The muzzle was not ground!

This is a picture of the factory target.

This is the factory unfired case and a fired.


I had copies of all my targets, but had a computer crash and are lost. Cabela's has my targets with the gun.

Wow that is a big chamber for the cases to expand that much. Did they eject OK or were they sticky?

I'll be bumping this thread shortly with the results of my Sabatti.

Here's the rifle and test target


Mike has seen it, its certainly a pretty gun. This weekend should tell how it shoots. Muzzles are unground, if it shoots as nice as the test target shows I'll be happy. If not, Ft Worth will be refunding some money.

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Wow that is a big chamber for the cases to expand that much.

I don't have ready access to the 9.3 case dimensions, are they within SAAMI Spec ?


If not, that is not good for a gun that is made in a country that supposedly
adheres to specs.


.

I wish I had time this week end AK_Stick,to see you give it a work out.. But... have fun with it.

AK_Stick, welcome home!

Please do let us know how it shoots. PM if you want to get a shoot together for next weekend.

Bob

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Wow that is a big chamber for the cases to expand that much. Did they eject OK or were they sticky?

They had to be pulled, with a little effort. the wouldn't fall out when you raised the muzzle.

I think what Sabatti is calling FINAL TUNING, is regulation of the sights, not the barrels.

quote:

Originally posted by coyote wacker:
They had to be pulled, with a little effort. the wouldn't fall out when you raised the muzzle.

I'd return it for a refund. They should just slide out when you lift the muzzles.

Re Final tuning, I don't think Sabatti know what they are doing.

.

This is the nail in the coffin for me. If they could build a dependable gun for this price they
would own the market. Maybe they will eventually
get their shat together.I think Cabelas exclusivity is short lived. Selling soso 5g guns
will not carry you far for long.

quote:

Originally posted by Lilguy:
Selling soso 5g guns will not carry you far for long.

They would make a million if they didn't have to keep giving refunds !!! - and of course they would sell a heap more if people didn't have reservations about them.

.

What did me in was when Cabelas got the exclusive rights to sell them. I had one on a wish list on one of the wholesaler webistes when they were listed as USSG guns. The 9.3s and 45-70s were at a dealer cost of around $1800 and the Nitro Express rounds were right at $2200 dealer cost. Then all of a sudden they weren't listed in inventory. I called the girl I always dealt with and she said they would not be getting any because Cabelas tied up the rights with Sabatti. A quick look showed a new retail price of a cool $5000 for the nitro model. Good grief, talk about gouging. I'm not putting $3000 in Cabelas pocket.

Well mine is a shooter, I couldn't get her to shoot like the factory target, but certainly good enough for me. Recoil was brisk to say the least, and even in 45-70 the recoil pad was crap but accuracy was good. Will post some photos after I get back to the house.

As promised, a couple of photos.





Left and Right at 100 yds



50m.

2 left, 2 right, the shot that hit the bull was a called flyer


Not the best shooting, but I'm more than a little rusty at shooting real calibers, and the recoil was kicking the snot out of me. Plus I was getting used to the triggers. This was the first 4 shots down range.

She definitely needs to get a better pad, and a little more length added so she fits me better. Actually have a bruise on my cheek bone from where she was catching me.

AK Stick,

From the bench? Same ammo as test target?

Good shooting at a hundred yards by the way.

Yes, from the bench, supported off my elbows.

Same ammo, the hornaday leveroution 325 grain ammo

Ak-Stick:

That is some nice shooting for being a little rusty.


I love the looks of your rifle, the wood seems to be very pretty with a nice grain to it and to top it all, it shoots good.
Alas though, its a Sabatti

I wish they make them in 9.3x74

Where in.... our paths might cross some day, you can PM me if you like.

Good hunting/shooting and God’s best

Malek

quote:

I wish they make them in 9.3x74

They do.

I put a Pachmeyer Sporting clays pad on my Sabatti .45/70. Mine is the Old English Decellerator pad .8 inches thick. It makes a huge difference in felt recoil. The sporting clays pad has a smooth insert on the top part of the pad to keep it from hanging up on clothing. My .45/70 Sab has ground muzzles and I could have returned it. However, it shoots so well that I opted to keep it.

I liked the Sporting Clays style pad so well that I put one on my Chapuis 9.3 as well.

Malek, look at Cabelas website, Sabatti does make a rifle in 9.3x74R.

As far as the brusied cheek, I think this is a fault of the generic style stock with a higher than necessary comb which is common to most "over the counter doubles".

My 9,3 Chapuis does the same thing. Slightly higher comb which causes you to press down to line up the sights. Solutions include wittling down the stock, having it restocked, adding higher front and rear sights, or adding a scope. I hesitate to change anything on my Chapuis since it shoots so well with the stock irons. Since I can average 30 rounds at a time before the cheek gets puffy I can live with it.

Giving some serious thought to selling this rifle and paying the extra money to have Chapuis build me a "bespoke" rifle to my stock measurements and with the left trigger in front, firing the left barrel as I am a lefty.

Drop me a line if you want to meet at Birchwood some day and I can bring it for you to try as well as my Searcy 450 NE. With any luck I'll have the 450/400 VC within a couple of weeks as well. We are due for another Alaskan DRSS shoot anyhow

Will do, I picked up the Chapuis that Kebco posted for sale a couple three weeks ago, so I think its safe to say that I've been hooked.

Thanks for the post. I took the plunge on a Searcy last year after breifly considering the Sab's. Here's a 50 yard target.

I'm very happy I spent the extra money.



Brad

If I could find a double that would shoot like that, I would bust the bank for it.

That's some great shooting Brad!

Brad, can you really see that well with open sights at 50 yards?

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Brad, can you really see that well with open sights at 50 yards?

Will

One of my 500's does the same all the time - maybe a fraction more of a gap between the 2 shots which is what I prefer anyway.

So yes, it is not that difficult to do IMHO.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
Seems folks are finally learning that the words, "CHEAP and "DOUBLE RIFLES", don't belong in the same sentence!

..................................

A true statement indeed!

Cheap means corners need to be cut somewhere.

Will:

Yes I can see reasonably well. My 46 yo eyes have a slight amount of presbyopia so I really struggle with the sights on my CAR-15 (essentially useless) but the Seary is long enough to shoot well. My secret is to exactly replicate the sight picture that I see for every shot. Notice the size of the target is almost exactly the size of the front sight bead at 50yards so I try and place the front sight so I get exactly the same amount of coverage the entire 360 degree's arount the target spot. At 100 yards the spread is about an inch between shots. I am very happy with this rifle and this makes that 10k hole in my back pocket not feel so big.

Thanks Brad

Coyote wacker:

Sorry to hear about your rifle and the way it shot. I can imagine it must be very disappointing. though at least you were able to resolve the issue with cabela's without a lot of hassle.

Good luck on your rifle hunt.


Will, MACD:

Thanks for your input guys. I know Sabatti makes their blue CC ones in 9.3x74, I own one of those, which I love. A very pretty rifle, a tack driver, right at right, left at left 1" apart at 50m. I did enjoy shooting it tremendously couple of times when I was back home.
What I was referring to in my post, if they offer a deluxe model in 9.3x74. I never saw one on cabela's site yet.

Best regards

Malek

Good hunting/shooting and God's best

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
Seems folks are finally learning that the words, "CHEAP and "DOUBLE RIFLES", don't belong in the same sentence!

..................................

Not trying to be a snob, but +1. I know someone here in Anchorage who bought one in .450/400. I saw him on the range and he was pretty at the end of his rope. He couldn't make it shoot with..........ANYTHING! Factory or handloads of any combination the mind could contrive. So I'm in a local gun shop yesterday and I saw a .450/400 Sabatti for sale.......Yep it's his! I'd stear FAR clear of these things! Just my 2 cents!

CW,

I'd look at VC and Heym...........no flies on a classic British gun either if the pocket book allows!

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:
Not trying to be a snob, but +1. I know someone here in Anchorage who bought one in .450/400. I saw him on the range and he was pretty at the end of his rope. He couldn't make it shoot with..........ANYTHING! Factory or handloads of any combination the mind could contrive. So I'm in a local gun shop yesterday and I saw a .450/400 Sabatti for sale.......Yep it's his! I'd stear FAR clear of these things! Just my 2 cents!

Brett

Which means some other poor sod, probably a newbie is going to get burnt and then it will end up on another gun shop's shelf and then another poor sod, probably a newbie is going to get burnt. And these guys don't have the back up of Cabela's return for refund.

And all this could have been avoided with a little extra time, a few more $$$ and care and attention. They still would have made just as much money, probably more because more would have been sold.


.

I have only shot a couple of Sabatis and that was recently..I worked up loads for two clients and both shot well once you found the right load, then you usually have to file the sights in.

Sounds like your gun is shooting pretty well you just have not gone about finding the proper load. The double gun is a different breed of cat and nothing in the gun world applies to doubles..You have to load it to cross at 50 or 75 yards then back off just a tad so that it will not cross.

Before you start you have to fire several 3 shot groups with each barrel..The the barrel that shoots the worst or the larger group is goitn to be your goal, as that is as good as the gun can be expected to shoot..That is what you strive for in group size when shooting both barrels together..

I bought a double 470 NE made by Mickelisch in Austria in 1958, anybody have any info on this guy?? Looking to take it to Tanzania next year so could use some reload date for 500g bullet.kld

Italian gun manufacturers make the large turnover in shotguns, to make rifles is more or less very new. They just get the machine time used up with this kind of guns. About five years before there was only Zoli and Beretta making rifles all the others joined in the last 5-7 years. So they still in the refining process. Sabatti and others they offer since a few years double rilfes that is totally new for them.

Nobody northern of the Alps came on the idea to asseble a double rilfe using Hornady ammo, that is only for a short time on the market, so the risk is high that they cancel them and in that case you can not buy factory ammo anymore for that double rifle. Most take RWS ammo because that is since over 70 years in nearly the same components available. They change as little as possible to keep the difference from Lot to Lot smale. They make still the origianl loads, which are about 30m/s slower then new loads with new developed components. But more powder weight and verlocity gives more heat and that is not liked by the double rifles when you shoot accuracy. (A perfect load has as litle powder as needed to get sufficent velocity but never the max possible).

When the rifle not shoots at all then the regulation from the barrels was not made properly, take a box RWS ammo (most where regulated for the 18,5g softpoint or the 16,7g H type bullet). The first two should be ok and together even if they where regulated for the Hornady, because heat changes impact much more after the first two (3rd to 6th shot). 9,3x74R is a cartriage which is really good and many factory loads shoots together (after adjusting the elevation for the bullet and ammo shot)

What he said.

When a top builder regulates a gun how is it done.

Grinding the muzzle seems like hack work, not

something a mainline manufacturer would use.

at Lilguy

I do not think that anything came out of the Sabatti factory like above told.

Sabatti is not a high end manufacturer but the rifles are ok made. The Italians would bring them back to the factory (stick it the staff in their a**) and many of them would have a longer drive then I have, down there.

Quality control is not so great in Italy (I had a Beretta shotgun with extractor problems, I was driving to the factroy because the Imporing company just not made anything, they just send it back the same after 6 month!).

And I think that is here the same, the rifles which not shoot came back, but they not send it to the manufacturer they repaired it by themselfe (destroyed it because not many have the equipment to regulate a double rifle).

In Germany and Austria are a few gunsmith which can regulate and Double or Drilling rifle. But it cost close to EUR 2000. When one barrel must be replaced you can just add an other 1000.

Buy it as close as possible so that you can show up there, the service is better and the quality because they know you will come again when they deliver rubbish.

The Sabatti cost only EUR 350 less then the Merkel so that is realy not worse the trouble (I had once looked at a Merkel 140, it shoot so bad that I have not bought it).

Here usually you can test shoot doubles (which are in stock) because otherwise nowone would buy it. And on the bespoken usually it is agreed on Suhler specs. (6shots 100m in 6cm is good, in 7,5cm is acceptable all above is second quality - bespoken guns have to stay below the 6cm group without cooling)

In most cases the dealer does not take the gun back so the only is to go to Italy to the factory they repair it or get it shooting well for sure.