.375 x 2 ½ & .375 FL Mag

I have a beautiful Holland & Holland DR now chambered in .375 Flanged Magnum, I believe this rifle started life as a .375 x 2 ½ inch and the chambers were lengthened. Given that the two and half inch shell was only loaded with a 270 grain bullet at a modest 1,975 velocity I think I am having troubles getting my barrels to regulate at Magnum velocities, 2,420 fps.

I will take this rifle to Africa and while she is not intended to harvest Ellie or Buff I want her capable to do so as a backup rifle. Nor do I insist that the velocities have to be at factory specs plus, but I would like them as close as possible.

All the results below are from the bench at 100 yds with the scope.

With 270 gr bullets and 75 gr H4350 I can’t keep 4 rds on the tgt at 100 yds, but anyway I prefer to work with the 300 gr bullet.

Individual barrel groups are excellent with 300 gr bullets, 2 rds easily going sub MOA at 100 yds. Barrels were crossing badly (7 inches) at 2580 fps (Factory 2425 fps) but as we backed off the load we have brought them in to two inches but velocity has dropped off to 2,240 fps.

Now I have run out of 300 gr bullets and we have a postal strike so my shipment will be delayed. I only have one box of 300 gr Woodleigh solids left, so I thought I would pick a few brains here. While I wait for more bullets.

I am assuming that this rifle has never been re-regulated and despite the change in chamber, It would appear that the heavier 300 gr bullets are performing better than the 270 gr bullets despite the fact she was regulated with 270 gr.

I can only assume that the 270 gr bullets will regulate at or close to 2,000 fps, I can’t check this as I am not happy with the air space when loading with 55 grains of H4350 in these cases and I don’t have any small size foam wads and even if I confirm this, so what, ! It is not an African load in my mind.

With the 300 gr bullets has anyone experienced any appreciable change when changing the bullet style with the same weight.? I.e. 300 gr RN verse a 300 gr PP verse a 300 gr spitzer BT. The bearing surface area must make a huge difference? Yes?

OR am I going in the wrong direction and all I should concentrate on is the time the bullet is in the barrel i. e. velocity Remember my individual barrel groups are super, I just want to close them in and raise the velocity which are two opposites.

I hope my ramblings make sense and I look forward to hearing some comments.

I do not own a DR but plan to. My suggestion is that you get the 3rd edition of Graeme Wright's book on Shooting the British Double Rifle.

There are many in AR who can advise you further. Good luck.

Hi John,
Has this rifle been re proofed and re regulated? I would think the new load would be stamped on the flats. Perhaps someone who dosen’t understand double rifles reamed the chambers but didn’t re regulate it. You are getting good barrel groups and perhaps the easiest way to get it to shoot to regulation with the 300gr bullets is have it re regulated with the new load. Do you have any factory ammo? I would try some over a crono and see what it does in your rifle then if it shoots well duplicate the load.
Graeme Wright list a load “Bell case 77.0gr of IMR-4831 CCI 250 mag primer 300gr Hornady soft point for 2264fps at 14.3tpsi”.
I would contact JJ Perodeau at Champlin arms He can make it shoot to your sights with your chosen load. I think he charges
$600. plus ammo.
http://www.champlinarms.com/Default.aspx?tabid=1
Good luck with your project and keep us posted.
Bill

John:
If the barrels group individually fine but the composite group is not to your liking I would suggest finding a velocity and bullet weight and style that you like and send it off to JJ at Champlin Arms and have him regulate the rifle to the load of your choice. He has done this to one or two of my rifles and he works magic.
Cheers and thanks for the photos.
Cal

Hi Bill, thanks for your input.

The rifle has been re-proofed which makes me think she would have been re-regulated but no load or bullet weight is stamped on the flats, so I do not know for sure. If she was re-regulated I would expect her to be grouping the higher velocity 270 gr load, but she is not even close.

I can reload to factory ballistics but the barrels are not close, I have 10 rds of original Kynock ammo but I fail to see how firing them off will help?

Graeme Wright’s listed load you quote is showing a velocity of 2265, my load at 67 Grains of H 4350 is giving 2361 but my barrels are still crossing and I don’t really want to back off my velocity much more. Graeme shows a load of 76 grains of H 4350 giving a velocity of 2475, with that load my barrels are crossing by nearly 7 inches at 100 yds yet this is very close to the factory specs of 2425 fps.

It would appear that I have to back off to 2100 fps or less to get my barrels to stop crossing at 100 yds, I would like to see a little higher velocity than that.

It is not the expense of re-regulating so much as the hassle of shipping a rifle into the US from Canada and back again as well as the time it takes. I paid top dollar for this rifle and was told she would shoot., the previous owned said that JJ Perodeau installed the sight! Maybe I should see if he has records of what he zeroed with. Maybe it was zeroed with a load which duplicated the ballistics of the old .375 x 2 ½ even though she is chambered in the .375 FL Mag. That may have suited a target shooter/collector but it fails to meet my requirements.

Hi Cal
If the photos meet your needs we can do the same for my two 8 Bore DR, please advise.

John

I'd go back to square one and start again changing one thing at a time with the loads.

But firstly, I think you maybe are aiming a bit high and overly focused on Velocity.

Get the thing to regulate if you can and then go from there.

I can't seem to find the right words for what I am trying to say but will come back to it.

.

If you aren't after Elephant and Buffalo, why worry so much about the velocity, particulary if time is of the essence and re-regulation might take too long. If you really need a back up (I've never had that problem in 20 safaris, but I just might be lucky?), I'd figure some way to get it immediately to JJ for re-regulation with a factory load that he can supply.

I took a .375 Express double to Africa and shot 270 grain Hornady round noses softs in it at 2100 fps. Every animal I took was a one shot kill with bullets perfectly expanded against the far skin unless it was something little like an impala and those had nickel-sized exit wounds. The animals included two zebra, black and blue wildebeest, kudu, hartebeest, multiple wart hogs and about 4 impala (and a guinea hen on the wing, but that's a long story).

I wouldn't hesitate to shoot an eland with the load, either, but would wait for a heart/lung broadside shot.

That great rifle needs to go to Africa. Don't not take it if you only get your loads regulated at 2100 or so. It'll give you great pleasure and, after all, what are the chances your primary rifle will go tits up?

JMHO

Hi John,

Because the gun has been reprooved doesn't mean it has been re-regulated.

I would try different powders before I changed anything else. I have had success with several doubles that were crossing or shooting apart by changing powders. I usually use R-15 or 4831 and typically a rifle has a preference for one or the other.

For example, 4831 recoils a bit more and if I had a gun crossing I'd try that as the extra recoil of the slow powder may be what you need to get the gun regulated.

Keep us posted on your progress.

The Flanged Mag requires a much different twist in the bbls to stabilize the heavier bullets at higher speeds. You might check that. That's why it is NOT recommended to rechamber, let alone the pressure issues of the much hotter load.

quote:

Originally posted by 470EDDY:
The Flanged Mag requires a much different twist in the bbls to stabilize the heavier bullets at higher speeds. You might check that. That's why it is NOT recommended to rechamber, let alone the pressure issues of the much hotter load.

Never seemed to stop American backyard gunsmiths trying to make a quick buck
by capitalizing on the higher price a Fl Mag brings.

.

Thanks for all the advice, I always enjoy brain storming a problem.

500N
I fully agree, back to square one. So I built a 50 m range beside my house so I could load 2 rds at a time walk outside and shoot them. My 300 m range is only 300 m from the house but not as handy as my new set up for load development.

Judge G
I do hunt Ellie and Buff, this rifle would make an ideal second rifle, because she is scoped she would be preferable under some conditions. My 8 Bore and .470 have iron sights)This means I would like to load to as high a velocity as practical but I do not get “hung up” on having factory ballistics. I agree fully that a 270 gr at 2100 fps would be a super load for Plains Game but I would prefer to be closer to factory ballistics for Ellie and Buff.

470Evans
"Because the gun has been re-proofed doesn't mean it has been re-regulated." Yes this is my concern, with hindsight I should have shot her before I purchased her.

470Eddy
No argument from me, but she has proof marks for .375 Fl Mag, although I view them as suspect now!

500N
"Never seemed to stop American backyard gunsmiths trying to make a quick buck
by capitalizing on the higher price a Fl Mag brings."
I hope you are wrong, but while I have a rifle that has been rechambered it appears that both the re- proof and re-regulation may be suspect.

This afternoon I fired off 28 rds from the bench at 50m over the chrony using different powders and bullets.

I will not post any more publicly until I have finished my research on this rifle.

More to follow!

quote:

Originally posted by John Hipwell:
Hi Bill, thanks for your input.

The rifle has been re-proofed which makes me think she would have been re-regulated but no load or bullet weight is stamped on the flats, so I do not know for sure. If she was re-regulated I would expect her to be grouping the higher velocity 270 gr load, but she is not even close.

I can reload to factory ballistics but the barrels are not close, I have 10 rds of original Kynock ammo but I fail to see how firing them off will help?

Graeme Wright’s listed load you quote is showing a velocity of 2265, my load at 67 Grains of H 4350 is giving 2361 but my barrels are still crossing and I don’t really want to back off my velocity much more. Graeme shows a load of 76 grains of H 4350 giving a velocity of 2475, with that load my barrels are crossing by nearly 7 inches at 100 yds yet this is very close to the factory specs of 2425 fps.

It would appear that I have to back off to 2100 fps or less to get my barrels to stop crossing at 100 yds, I would like to see a little higher velocity than that.

It is not the expense of re-regulating so much as the hassle of shipping a rifle into the US from Canada and back again as well as the time it takes. I paid top dollar for this rifle and was told she would shoot., the previous owned said that JJ Perodeau installed the sight! Maybe I should see if he has records of what he zeroed with. Maybe it was zeroed with a load which duplicated the ballistics of the old .375 x 2 ½ even though she is chambered in the .375 FL Mag. That may have suited a target shooter/collector but it fails to meet my requirements.

Hi Cal
If the photos meet your needs we can do the same for my two 8 Bore DR, please advise.

John,
Shooting a known factory load will tell you if it will shoot with factory, it will also tell you what velocity you are getting with your rifle and factory loads. This gives you a bench mark to start from in duplicating that load in your rifle.
You noted that the previous owned said that JJ Perodeau installed the sight! I would call JJ and see if he has any info on that rifle. I will bet if he did work on it he will have records.
Bill

Personally I would have no problem hunting with that 375 Flanged Magnum with 300 gr bullets at 2240fps.
Not even for cape buff or brain shots on elephants.

I have killed a bunch of African game, including giraffe, cape buff [one 286gr Woodleigh Soft], and elephant [one 286gr Solid], with my 9,3x74R double rifle.
The velocities of my loads are @2220fps.

I had no trouble killing a kudu at a little over 300 yards.
I also used the 286gr Nosler Partition and it performs about the same as the Woodleigh Soft.

But then don't pretend that slow moving bullets are something they are not.

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
John:
If the barrels group individually fine but the composite group is not to your liking I would suggest finding a velocity and bullet weight and style that you like and send it off to JJ at Champlin Arms and have him regulate the rifle to the load of your choice. He has done this to one or two of my rifles and he works magic.
Cheers and thanks for the photos.
Cal

Cal, if this rifle was re-chambered to 375 Flanged mag and not re-proofed, JJ will not re-regulate it! I 'd certainly call him on the phone before shipping the rifle to him!

Well, I guess the hundred or so animals I have killed with those loads are just pretending to be dead...

Bottom line is you may be able to find a load combo that will work if you play with it, but you may not, in which case you must have the gun re-regulated..

Smiths that regulate the best IMO are David Yale in Colorado and L&L Interprises, Joseph Lee LeBas 111 in Carson City, Nv. L&L has decent turn arounds or has in the past with me.

I would not even consider taking a gun to Africa or on any hunting trip that was not shooting exactly where I pointed it.

Quote: I would not even consider taking a gun to Africa or on any hunting trip that was not shooting exactly where I pointed it.
That is the reason I am doing this research, I have to be able to get her to shoot, apart from that I paid top dollar!

This rifle was reproofed, see below;


I believe the rifle was rechambered and then reproofed. I hardly think a US Gunsmith would rechamber her and ship her to the UK for proofing. After the re-chambering she was sold in the US, I know the name of the last US owner but as I haven’t been able to contact him yet it would not be “proper” to mention his name. He sold the gun to Champlain’s (or had them sell it for him) who then sold it to a Canadian who in turn sold it to me. The Canadian owner claimed that George told him JJ fitted the Talley bases and that the rifle grouped in one inch with loads from Superior. I have spoken to both JJ and George, they both remember the rifle and have promised to check their records for any relevant information. I haven’t contacted Superior yet.

I also have a letter from Holland & Holland saying that the rifle was a No 2 Model (Dominion) built in March 1906 and regulated for the 270 Gr bullet with 40 Gr of Cordite which is the .375 x 2 ½ inch load. They show no record of any later rechambering. The original owner was a Lt Ross based in Bombay India

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
Well, I guess the hundred or so animals I have killed with those loads are just pretending to be dead...

Have you tried shooting it with and with out a scope to see how that works?

John,
I was wondering if you have called or emailed JJ to see what he can tell you about your rifle.
Bill

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Cooley:
John,
I was wondering if you have called or emailed JJ to see what he can tell you about your rifle.
Bill

I have spoken to JJ and George both twice, they said they would look into it ! I am waiting.

John;
If you do find out this was a 21/2, you can always load 270gr bullets which is what it was regulated for, find a load between the 21/2 and Flanged velocity and you should be fine. Animals won't know the difference!!
Did you receive my e-mail about the Flemming Book, Vol 1,2,3 Hoyem and British Gunmakers Vol 3?? All still available.