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I am going to start working up a load for my 470NE. It's a Army&Navy built aprox 1908. My plan is a starting load of 85gr of RL15, foam filler, Fedral 215 primers and Woodleigh softs and FMJ's. Increasing by 1 grain until regulated. Does this sound right? Anything else you can suggest? NRA CRPA DRSS | ||
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There are others with much more experience with this than I, but in my K at 50F, 86.5 grs. had 500 gr. Woodleighs going around 2200 fps. At 90F, they would really be flying. Even though it is a pain, I'd start with less than 85 grs. of RL-15. Off topic, but with the NF, 85 grs. at 84F, they were at or >2200 fps. I stopped there, but obviously can make them go as fast as you want! P.S. My K doesn't care what I feed it, it shoots pretty much the same. I suspect I know why, but it is a topic for another day.  ------------------------------- Will / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor, GOA, NAGR _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped. “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ If anything be of note, let it be he was once an elephant hunter, hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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And then there is the temperature thing. If it regulates at 70F, or wherever you are, is it still "regulated" at 100F?  ------------------------------- Will / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor, GOA, NAGR _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped. “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ If anything be of note, let it be he was once an elephant hunter, hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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Since you don't say which brass you are using, I would start a little lower. I am using the same set up you are with Bell Brass. My Kreighoff regulates with softs at 88.5 grains of Rel 15 and 88 grains of Rel 15 with Solids. I believe the reason for the difference is the solid is a little longer, so when seated to the same AOL, case capacity is slightly reduced. Jim "Bwana Umfundi" NRA | |||
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And the barrels on the K are most likely 2 or 4 inches shorter than your A&N. ------------------------------- Will / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor, GOA, NAGR _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped. “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ If anything be of note, let it be he was once an elephant hunter, hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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Thanks for the relpies. I am using Jamison brass. I think my main concern is what is "too hot" for an older rifle like this. NRA CRPA DRSS | |||
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Yep, I'd go low to start. ------------------------------- Will / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor, GOA, NAGR _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped. “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ If anything be of note, let it be he was once an elephant hunter, hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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If you use one of Hodgdon's Extreme powders such as H-4831 you don't have to worry about this. 465H&H | |||
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Or be a real pioneer and use Varget Extreme instead of RL-15. My lots of Varget have seemed just a tad slower than RL-15, about one grain of powder more Varget required to equal RL-15. Varget and RL-15 are very near identical in burn rate. Varget has even better temperature insensitivity than RL-15. You will come closest to being regulated at all temperatures with that load. Start with 85 grains of Varget and you will be even safer than starting at 85 grains of RL-15. Also, the best filler would be just 5 grains of Dacron or polyester fluff tamped in over the powder with a wooden pencil eraser. I have gotten away from the filler by using H4831 or H4831SC at 109 grains (+/- 1 grain depending on the bullet). The antique double might be better off with the RL-15, and probably even better off with Varget for load consistency with temperature variation. Both RL-15 and Varget will give higher peak pressures but they will occur near the chambers where your barrels are thickest, and yield lower pressures by the time your bullets are down the bores to the thinner sections of the barrels made of pre-war steel. Recoil will be a little less for babying that antique wood too, with RL-15 or Varget. We modern double rifle shooters enjoy lower peak pressures, and unnoticeably greater recoil with the slower powders not requiring filler. If I had an antique I would substitute Varget for RL-15, grain-for-grain, start low and work up with a chronograph, striving for parallel to infinity. There should be no surprises. | |||
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Pictures, pictures, pictures! "Sometimes nothing can be a pretty cool hand." 470 Heym; 9.3x74r Chapuis, Heym 450/400 on it's way | |||
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85 grs. of RL-15 and 5 grs. of dacron will give you 2020 FPS in a 24 inch barrel .470 N.E. That is a really mild load and one that I have shot a lot of buffalo with, it works very well and kills well. According to the A-Square Reloading manual, 90 grs. of RL-15 is a max load... and that will get you 2162 FPS. My .470 with the 85 grs of RL-15 and 5 grs of Dacron shot to the same POI as 108 grs. of IMR-4831 at 2245 FPS in my Searcy, but that gun shot everything to the same POI..The 108 grs of IMR-4831 was an attention getter and uncomfortable to shoot.. A good play time load was 45 grs. of XMP5744 and a 500 gr. lead bullet for about 1600 FPS, not chronographed. It also shot to same POI as the other two loads in my rifle. I chronographed all these loads btw, 10 shots taking out the high and low...Fed 215 primers, Federal cases with a light crimp. All cases trimmed with a file trim die. That should give you a starting point so work around that and when the groups come together, you have it.. Remember shoot 3 groups with each barrel seperately, then you will know which barrel is the more accurate, AND your rifle will only shoot as well as the WORST barrel, and that is your goal... Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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I'm not trying to cause problems but only pointing out a fact. On my Powder burn rate chart...Varget is 117 and RL-15 is 129. Now this in itself means nothing in terms of absolute burn rate but I would be hesitant in using Varget with RL 15 Load data. Just my own opinion. I have never used Varget in my doubles...but I do like it in my 22-250! ****************************************************************** R. Lee Ermey: "The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." ****************************************************************** We're going to be "gifted" with a health care plan we are forced to purchase and fined if we don't, Which purportedly covers at least ten million more people, without adding a single new doctor, but provides for 16,000 new IRS agents, written by a committee whose chairman says he doesn't understand it, passed by a Congress that didn't read it but exempted themselves from it, and signed by a President, with funding administered by a treasury chief who didn't pay his taxes, for which we'll be taxed for four years before any benefits take effect, by a government which has already bankrupted Social Security and Medicare, all to be overseen by a surgeon general who is obese, and financed by a country that's broke!!!!! 'What the hell could possibly go wrong?' | |||
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On my handy dandy powder burn rate chart, RL-15 is #71, and varget is #73, with the higher number meaning slower burning. 80 grains of RL-15 was equivalent to 81 grains of Varget Extreme in one of my 404 Jeffery tests with 400-grain Woodleighs: 2400 fps Thats my experience with my lots of powders. I think if you want to go by burn rate tables, you better get an average of all out there. | |||
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In this table: http://gsgroup.co.za/burnrates.html RL-15 ranks in #28 bracket. Varget ranks in #29 bracket. Varget is a tad slower by that ranking too. Looks like I am winning on the averages so far. Got anymore tables? Hmmm? | |||
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I feel obligated to give RIP crap from time to time just for the heck of it. I can feel the difference in recoil in real life between the heavy 4831 loads and the lighter RL-15. And there is a bit of difference in the calculated recoil energy and rifle velocity. But I am a whimp. Is Varget vs. RL-15 really going to make a difference in pressure? Without looking for it, is not 4831 slower than Rl-15? If that is the case, wouldn't it require more Varget than RL-15 to get to a desired velocity? And the Kynoch foam plugs has to be much handier than weighed pillow stuffing! ------------------------------- Will / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor, GOA, NAGR _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped. “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ If anything be of note, let it be he was once an elephant hunter, hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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Amen. The foam plugs are well worth the money. Buy three bags and you are set for a loooong time. Also don't have to deal with it looking like it is snowing every time you shoot the rifle. Mike | |||
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Here is the chart I refrenced. Burn Rates I don't doubt that Varget would work in a double...hell maybe I should try and work up some loads. I only suggest one is very careful when using load data for one powder and subing another "similar" powder. ****************************************************************** R. Lee Ermey: "The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." ****************************************************************** We're going to be "gifted" with a health care plan we are forced to purchase and fined if we don't, Which purportedly covers at least ten million more people, without adding a single new doctor, but provides for 16,000 new IRS agents, written by a committee whose chairman says he doesn't understand it, passed by a Congress that didn't read it but exempted themselves from it, and signed by a President, with funding administered by a treasury chief who didn't pay his taxes, for which we'll be taxed for four years before any benefits take effect, by a government which has already bankrupted Social Security and Medicare, all to be overseen by a surgeon general who is obese, and financed by a country that's broke!!!!! 'What the hell could possibly go wrong?' | |||
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If I should work up loads with the filler-requiring medium burn-rate powder loads (like the interchangeable RL-15 and Varget), the only reason I would put up with the Dacron snowstorm is because of Ross Seyfried calling the foam wads into question with chamber ringing or barrel bulging or some such complication that he has seen occur with the "plastic worm" wads. Apparently he never saw it happen with a tight packed wad of polyester. Ross never fully justified his disparagement of foam wads, beyond that, so it may well be just anecdotal-incidental-skewed-view stuff. However I quit punching out the foam wads with my chamfer-sharpened 50BMG case mouth after that. I had all kinds of thicknesses and densities of foam in single or multilayered stacks ... Will has a very sensitive shoulder. When we get to be his age, we may too. However I doubt that even his shoulder could tell the difference between 87 grains of RL-15 versus 88 grains of Varget. However he might be able to see the temperature stability of varget versus RL-15 on paper and chronograph. | |||
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Not sure how this enters into the equation, but with "Dacron Filler" about 5 grains is used, a Kynoch foam plug weighs less than 1 grain. I have been using these without problems for the last few years. Jim "Bwana Umfundi" NRA | |||
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My homemade foam plugs weighed about 1 to 2 grains depending on the density and length of the plugs cut with the 50BMG case. The dacron filler sure gets rid of more air than a less-than-one-grain foam plug. Ross's anecdotes of chamber ringing must surely refer to old antique doubles. Modern steel doubles surely can handle foam or dacron. I am just guessing that antique 470NE doubles ought to stick to the 5 grain dacron fluff and medium burn rate powders to be safest for them. If I was starting over with an antique double, I would use "snowstorm filler" and Varget. | |||
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I have never seen or read of one single "documented" case of chamber ringing or any other problem arising from use of Kynoch or similar type of polyester accoustic foam wadding. That said, Kynoch apparently feels confident enough to sell ammo loaded this way and I have not heard any reports of problems with their ammo. I have been using the foam wads in my .470 NE and .500 NE for five years and have never had a problem of any type. I Perhaps other types of foam, which may be more dense or less combustible, may be responsible for these reports. But, I have long since filed these "reports" under folklore and old wives tales. Just my take on things. Geronimo | |||
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I have never seen or read of one single "documented" case of chamber ringing or any other problem arising from use of Kynoch or similar type of polyester accoustic foam wadding. That said, Kynoch apparently feels confident enough to sell ammo loaded this way and I have not heard any reports of problems with their ammo. I have been using the foam wads in my .470 NE and .500 NE for five years and have never had a problem of any type. Perhaps other types of foam, which may be more dense or less combustible, may be responsible for these reports. But, I have long since filed these "reports" under folklore and old wives tales. Just my take on things. Geronimo | |||
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Mike: I hope the recovery is going well! Where is a good supplier for the plugs in question? 577NitroExpress Double Rifle Shooters Society Francotte .470 Nitro Express  If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming... | |||
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I get mine from a place called Trader Keith's. Their number is 800-338-3146. Email is trader@esplanadetours.com. They also sell cartridge holders, culling belts, snap caps, jags, slings, etc. Recovery is going fine. Now I think staying at home is actually impeding my recovery. Back to the office tomorrow. Mike | |||
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Mike: Thanks for the information. I'm headed back to the office on Tuesday. My wife is in St. Lucia with her girlfriends for a chick weekend, so Ewan and I are in PA with my pops for the weekend. And Karin, my wife, got mugged on Friday - some SOB stole her blackberry right off her hip - really pissed me off. Good thing I wasn't there... 577NitroExpress Double Rifle Shooters Society Francotte .470 Nitro Express If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming... | |||
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Sounds like someone who would like to have their body used as a test medium for a .577 NE. Luckily, sounds like no one was hurt.Mike | |||
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Paul, You and your family need a break! Glad Karin only lost a blackberry. Tell Doc I said hi. R ****************************************************************** R. Lee Ermey: "The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." ****************************************************************** We're going to be "gifted" with a health care plan we are forced to purchase and fined if we don't, Which purportedly covers at least ten million more people, without adding a single new doctor, but provides for 16,000 new IRS agents, written by a committee whose chairman says he doesn't understand it, passed by a Congress that didn't read it but exempted themselves from it, and signed by a President, with funding administered by a treasury chief who didn't pay his taxes, for which we'll be taxed for four years before any benefits take effect, by a government which has already bankrupted Social Security and Medicare, all to be overseen by a surgeon general who is obese, and financed by a country that's broke!!!!! 'What the hell could possibly go wrong?' | |||
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Guys: Thanks for the notes. Karin is fine, just a littel shook up. And yes, we have had a miserable few weeks. But it can only get better! 577NitroExpress Double Rifle Shooters Society Francotte .470 Nitro Express If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming... | |||
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