I have decided to get my first double rifle. It will be the Searcy PH model. It will be perfect for me. I can't decide on the cal. Please give me your honest opinion (and why if you will) on what would be your choice of cal. I need to be educated on doubles. 450/400, 470 NE or the 500 Ne. This gun will never see Elephant, in my hands but hopefully lots of cape buffalo and similar size beast. Thanks Maddog

PS I am not recoil sensative as I have 416's and a 458 Lott that I love.

If recoil is really (and I mean Really) not an issue I would go with the 500. As noted in many posts on this forum and in the African hunting literature the 500 unquestionably provides an incremental increase in killing power. Also noted is that it provides this additional power at a higher level of recoil. Whether this additional killing power is necessary will continue to be debated for another 100 years I am sure. (Or until "rail guns" become routinely available.....)

I think though that it is clear that any of the cartridges that you list are adequate for Cape Buffalo and frankly anything else.

Enjoy your new purchase and congratulations.

Maddog,

I own a Lott shot a bull ele and buf... shot a 450#2, and a 500...Since you know how to shoot a Lott the 500 will be very managable..In fact you will love it...

Mike

Maddog,

Get the Searcy with 26" barrels and get it in 450/400 3 inch. YOu will never regret it.
As ELS of our forum found out last year, he took 4 elephants and was very impressed with the penetration of the long .411, 400 grain bullet.

The other calibers are great, however you will shoot the 450/400 3 inch more.

Just my opine and your money!

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty:
Maddog,

Get the Searcy with 26" barrels and get it in 450/400 3 inch. YOu will never regret it.
As ELS of our forum found out last year, he took 4 elephants and was very impressed with the penetration of the long .411, 400 grain bullet.

The other calibers are great, however you will shoot the 450/400 3 inch more.

Just my opine and your money!

Rusty is right, if I read your post correctly. What you want is a good Buffalo double, that you will shoot far more in the USA, on bear,moose, wild hogs, and deer than in Africa.
The 450/400NE 3" is the one! Eventhough, it is a handloading deal, it make little difference, because all double rifles are handloading deals, to get the best from your rifle, not to mention the cost of factory ammo for double rifles. Butch will build you one, and you can get a Chapuis from Treditions chambered for 450/400NE 3 " with Talley scope bases for around $10K. Like Rusty, I'd rather have Butch's rifle, but the wait is longer! If however, you want a double rifle strictly for North America, then a little Merkel, or Chapuis chambered for 9.3X74R is a rifle you will shoot far more than anything in a NE 400 cal or over!

Retreever. Thanks for the e-mail it was a real eye-opener.
And thanks to all you guys and your opinions'.
I am still wanting all the in put I can get.
Do you think that the 470 NE would be the perfect choice? As it would put me in the middle of the game... Maddog

Since elephant is not in your plans, .450/.400 is the most sensible choice.
------------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

As a new 450-400 owner, I concur. Another thing on the horizon is that Hornady told me they are planning to bring out 450-400 dies,bullets brass and loaded ammo within 6 mos, as Ruger is supposed to load the 450-400 3" in the Number 1. Wow, regular source of reasonably priced brass, what a hedge against future uncertainty with the NE's.
I'm expecting my custom dies from their custom shop shortly.
Bob

MADDOG, You have a PM.

Maddog,

Since Hornady is going to load or make the components the 450/400 would be the way to go..
450#2 loaded by Kynoch are $100 for a box of 5 rounds and 500 have to be at least 40 dollars more per box...
The double by Butch you can specify a slightly hotter load and it will be even a little better...
I can tell you this they become addicting to shoot...

Mike

An interesting thing about the 400 3" is that you can scope it with out a lot of worry. I had butch make my 400 heavy. it weights 11 1/2 lbs with the scope on on 10 1/2 with out. I have shot it as many as 35 times in one afternoon with out any problems or fatique. With that many rounds out of a 470 I would have been a total absolute flintching wreck.

Another option is a 450 3&1/4". It splits the difference between the 400 and the 470. It is enough for any thing in the world and you can use regular cheap 458 bullets. it can be made on a smaller thinner frame that the bigger bores. My recoil calculator says it will recoil at about 58 foot pounds if it weights 10.5lbs.

The bottom line is to get what you want and what makes you happy. They will all work great if you point them well.
just MHO
es

The 470NE is a great option as is the 400J.
I have enjoyed my 470NE but I am replacing it with a SEARCY 400J with TALLY mounts for all round use.
PS; Don't rule out Elephant, as they might not rule you out.
ozhunter

MADDOG, You have a Private Message.

I too would recommend the 450/400.
And I would have a scope fitted in QD mounts.

If you think you will only make one or two, OK maybe 3 trips to Africa I can also recommend a Chapuis 9,3x74R, with scope.

450 no2 You Have IM...Tks Maddog

If you are getting the rifle to shoot a lot at the range, I would get a 450/400. If you are getting the rifle to shoot a lot of elephant at close range, I would get a .500 NE. If you are getting a rifle to shoot a bit and hunt with a bit, but want to keep resale value as high as possible, I would get a 470 NE.

quote:

If you are getting the rifle to shoot a lot at the range, I would get a 450/400. If you are getting the rifle to shoot a lot of elephant at close range, I would get a .500 NE. If you are getting a rifle to shoot a bit and hunt with a bit, but want to keep resale value as high as possible, I would get a 470 NE.

I think that this is an excellent summary of the question at hand.

Now, with the explicit intent to NOT induce a flame message war but rather to try to learn, I must say that I am a little surprised at the number of recommendations for the 450/400 or calibers within that "class" or smaller. The reason for this surprise is that the original poster emphasized that he was not sensitive to recoil, which to my mind then suggests that he get as large a rifle as possible, per my original posting. (I really have to wonder after he has fired a 500 NE several times if he will still feel that way, but anyway...)

It seems that the basic argument for a double rifle is dependability with it essentially representing an insurance policy on your life when the chips are really down. Given that this is the major justification for this type of rifle I believe that a big caliber is more consistent with the intended purpose for this type of rifle.

I read in African Hunter that an analysis of performance of various calibers on stopping charges was recently completed. The statistics (I think from just South Africa during the last few to several years) showed 22 charges had been documented to have started from under 30 meters. (It was interesting to note that for charges starting from over 30 meters all were successfully stopped by all of the calibers used.) For the 22 close range charges studied, 11 involved use of a "375 class" caliber. None of these charges were successfully stopped with death or injury resulting to the hunter. Eight charges involved use of a "470 class" caliber, with only five of these charges successfully stopped. Successful being defined as the hunter emerging "intact" from the incident. This still leaves 3 hunters who were injuried. Only for the "500 and 577 class" calibers were all of the charges stopped (3 for 3). I suppose that you can argue that given a larger population of charges that the 500 or 577 might eventually also fail to stop a charge, but even a cursory examination of these data suggest the 500 and 577 are better at stopping charges than the smaller calibers, even those within the 470 class.

Given that the primary value of the double is dependability when your life is on the line, say from a close range charge, I would think that, given that you can handle the additional recoil, the 500 is the "better" round.

Once again, I would like to emphasize that I really have no dog in this fight and am here to learn from the very experienced hunters on this forum.

Though it seems that it is not enforced, I am told there is a law on the books that prohibits

taking a rifle out of the U.S.A. that is a 50 caliber or larger, (without a special permit).

I, being employed by a bureaucracy my entire working life, (over 25 years)

have NO FAITH that this non-enforcement practice can be counted on to continue.

On any given day, some new whiz kid gets promoted into a policy making position and the

world is turned upside down by his new ideas so he can put that into his resume for when he is

contending for his next step up. Being just a regular guy whose life is

complicated enough with life's normal collection of curve balls which I must hit to stay in the game,

I'd stay UNDER 50 CALIBER!!! and PRACTICE A LOT so I could STOP A CHARGE

WITH A BRAIN SHOT using a 30 caliber bullet. The fact that I am really using a 45 or 47 or

what ever 40 something caliber double rifle is all the better!

quote:

Originally posted by Don In Colorado:
[QUOTE]If you are getting the rifle to shoot a lot at the range, I would get a 450/400. If you are getting the rifle to shoot a lot of elephant at close range, I would get a .500 NE. If you are getting a rifle to shoot a bit and hunt with a bit, but want to keep resale value as high as possible, I would get a 470 NE.

quote:

I think that this is an excellent summary of the question at hand.

You are correct, 500 always seems to have a grip on the sittuation!

quote:

Now, with the explicit intent to NOT induce a flame message war but rather to try to learn, I must say that I am a little surprised at the number of recommendations for the 450/400 or calibers within that "class" or smaller.

There is no reason for a flame war here! This string takes two different trains of thought, and that is where some of what looks like, contraditory lines, comes from!

quote:

It seems that the basic argument for a double rifle is dependability with it essentially representing an insurance policy on your life when the chips are really down. Given that this is the major justification for this type of rifle I believe that a big caliber is more consistent with the intended purpose for this type of rifle.

If that were the poster's reason for buying a double rifle, then all the above would dfffinately be true, and I, in the same sittuation, would buy a 500NE double rifle. However, I don't beelieve that is where the question led me to think. Since he already has a 416, and a 458 LOTT, and doesn't want to hunt Elaphant, his use for the double would be, as he says,would be used on a lot of Buffalo. With that in mind, there are few chamberings that are better suited to Buffalo hunting than a 450/400NE 3" J.

quote:

I read in African Hunter that an analysis of performance of various calibers on stopping charges was recently completed. The statistics (I think from just South Africa during the last few to several years) showed 22 charges had been documented to have started from under 30 meters. (It was interesting to note that for charges starting from over 30 meters all were successfully stopped by all of the calibers used.) For the 22 close range charges studied, 11 involved use of a "375 class" caliber. None of these charges were successfully stopped with death or injury resulting to the hunter. Eight charges involved use of a "470 class" caliber, with only five of these charges successfully stopped. Successful being defined as the hunter emerging "intact" from the incident. This still leaves 3 hunters who were injuried. Only for the "500 and 577 class" calibers were all of the charges stopped (3 for 3). I suppose that you can argue that given a larger population of charges that the 500 or 577 might eventually also fail to stop a charge, but even a cursory examination of these data suggest the 500 and 577 are better at stopping charges than the smaller calibers, even those within the 470 class.

If the rifle was only to be used when needed for stopping, then there are two schools of thought on what stops a charge! One is all out power, that is big enough to let you make near mistakes in bullet placement, and stop the charge! Read 500NE, .577NE,! The other is proper placement of the bullet, to scramble athe CNS, also stopping the charge. Both work! The problem with the first idea is, few people will practice enough with a very large bore double to become really profecient with it. Add to that the weight/recoil of the rifle being enough to slow down the the recovery time needed to get back on target for the all important, second shot! With the smaller rifle, one is likely to shoot it a lot more, becoming a real shot with it, and the weight/recoil being lighter, for both weight, and recoil makeing the rifle more resposive, for the first shot, and shortens the time factor for the second shot!

quote:

Given that the primary value of the double is dependability when your life is on the line, say from a close range charge, I would think that, given that you can handle the additional recoil, the 500 is the "better" round.

If dependability, only meant the cartridge's ability to damage tissue, the above would be absolutely true. IMO, and I may be wrong, dependability when speaking of double rifles has little to do with chambering other than a proper flanged cartridge. Dependability in a double rifle is the fact that the piece is two completely indipendant single shot rifles on the same stock. It is true, however, that a bullet like the 750 gr .585 dia slug coming out of a 577NE double rifle is a forse to be delt with, but so in the weight/recoil of the rifle that bullet being shot form,makeing the first shot all your likely to get in a 30 yd charge, and if it doesn't do the trick, you are no better off than with a single shot. At least with the lighter rifle/recoil, you are almost guarinteed a second shot off the end of the barrels.

quote:

Once again, I would like to emphasize that I really have no dog in this fight and am here to learn from the very experienced hunters on this forum.

I think you are right in your opinion, but it is only one way to look at the use of a double rifle. It was my take that the origenal poster was looking for a reason to buy a double rifle, mainly because he "WANTS" one, and not because he actually needs one. To further qualify the "NEED" for a double rifle, one needs to be able to use the rifle for more than just stopping, to justify the price involved. With a good 10.5 lb double chambered for 450/400NE 3", or 3 1/4" it can be used for all North game, from jack rabbit, to the largest bear on Earth, and at the same time be used to hunt anything in Africa, including Elephant.

I personally know most of those reccomending the 450/400s, and they, and myself included, have all owned, beside a 450/400NE, larger, and smaller double rifles, and used them on African game! That is the back ground for thier, and my opinion. I made a mistake selling my 450/400 3" A&N, and I have a 470NE double now, that I would gladly trade for a well maintained 450/400NE 3"! There is nothing worng with a 470NE and up, but if I could only have one double rifle, it would be a 450/400NE 3"!

Please guys! NO FLAME WAR! We need another one of those like we need a double rifle with bent barrels!

Good choice Maddog!

Wich maker chambers the 450/400NE 3"?

Gentlemen
Rest assured I would have NO PROBLEM taking a 450/400 against elephant, buffalo, hippo, lion or ANY other animal on the Planet.