I am one of the people who recently purchased a Sabatti in 450 NE. I have never owned a double rifle, so it took me a couple of weeks to gather new reloading equipment and supplies to load for the 450 NE.

Based on the recommendation of a fellow AR member, Clayman216 IIRC, I also purchased "Shooting the British Double Rifle" by Graeme Write. Very good advice indeed! Not only do I now understand what regulation is, but also the theory behind how it is achieved. Furthermore, the book supplied me with the reloading information I needed to get started with this caliber.

I must say that I am very happy with this rifle, probably more so than with any other purchase. I'm no professional, but is appears to be very well made. The wood is beautiful, the rifle feels solid and fits me like a glove. The only thing I would improve upon is the trigger pull. I haven't measured it, but the triggers are quite stiff, especially since I prefer mine to be quite light. I'll see what happens after a couple hundred dry fires, but can't imagine they will improve that much. That said, they may very well be exactly what some people like.

The following two pictures are the factory regulation target I received with the rifle. After reading the book I'm a little surprised that "final tuning" doesn't consist of more than one shot per barrel.







These pictures are from today, six rounds loaded with 97 grains of R19 behind a 450 grain North Fork expanding bullet.

I was using the large 50 yard slow fire pistol targets. FYI in case they are visible online...those are NOT my painted toes.



This is the group up close, showing the individual shots.



These three are the group measurments width, height, and greatest "spread."








That makes my group just over two inches at 25 yards. I was hoping for a little less since my individual right and left barrel groups at 25 yards with 95 grains of R19 were quite a bit smaller (1.5 - 2 inches apart), but I'm still very happy with the group as it is.

I plan on staying with this load and moving to 50 yards this week.

I guess I should mention that I was not shooting from a bench, but with only my front hand supported. I'm pretty sure the rifle shot better than I did, so there is a good chance the group would have been smaller off of a bench.

Here's the set-up:



I'll post pictures with my 50 yard group as soon as I get to the range.

quote:

Originally posted by Austringer:
The following two pictures are the factory regulation target I received with the rifle. After reading the book I'm a little surprised that "final tuning" doesn't consist of more than one shot per barrel.

The guns in GW's book are more often than not English guns that cost a bit more.
You get what you pay for. No way would Sabatti spend more time for the cost of the rifle.
More expensive rifles get more regulation treatment.


Good stuff on the targets.

Where were you aiming ?


FWIW, I would put a sticky white or yellow dot at 6 oclock and use that as the aiming mark.
A hell of a lot easier to see and line up the sight on than the 10 ring.

Also, if you out one at the 12 o'clock position, most times you can shoot 2 groups
on the one target.

Good luck.
target

500N:

I probably should have mentioned that I was using a scope, so I was aiming at the 10 ring.

Sabatti is, as far as I know, the least expensive double on the market, that is true. But while at SCI I noticed that many manufacturers were only using one shot per barrel on their regulation targets.

As for the much more pricey British doubles I'm sure you're right, I wouldn't be surprised if they had regulation targets with more shots.

I forgot to put this questions out there. In the book Wright states that the goal is to have left and right barrel groups superimposed upon one another, which makes perfect sense.

On my target the groups are not so much superimposed as one on top of the other, slight off-set.

I'm wondering if that may be a concern as my distance increases.

I presume that it was regulated with Hornady. Might get a box of Hornady just to see how it shoots relative to the regulation target. Congrats on your purchase.

re is it a concern, you will have to shoot it to find out.


Also, get someone else who is good at shooting them - if you can find someone.

It is amazing how a gun will group / shoot differently with someone else
doing the shooting. I noticed this when people who said a gun wouldn't shoot could be well shot by someone else.

Just my HO.

Better half appears to have a nice pedicure.

quote:

Originally posted by Cane Rat:
Better half appears to have a nice pedicure.

I hope!

1 1/2" at 25 yards would be good enough for me. It is doing about what the factory did. It all depends on what you are going to do with the rifle.

Are you going to try different powders? I only have the 2nd edition and he only used RL-15.

Velocities?

It looks like you are using NF 450gr bullets & the rifle would probably have been regulated for the 480 gr or 500 gr bullets. Your group at 25 yards might spread out a lot more at 50 yards if the velocity is a bit high or a bit low.

It would be interesting to see how you go. thanks for posting & good luck.

Looks like it is shooting very good to me. A little left adjustment and you would be spot on.

I would shoot it at 50 yards and 100 yards.

And since it has a scope 150 and 200 yards as well.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
Looks like it is shooting very good to me. A little left adjustment and you would be spot on.

I would shoot it at 50 yards and 100 yards.

And since it has a scope 150 and 200 yards as well.

I wouldn't change the scope until after shooting it at 50 and 10 yards, but that is my opinion only.

The reason for this is you don't want to bring another variable into the equation. Just my HO from regulating DR's - change one thing at a time.

Reported pressure of the 97 and 95 gr. RL-19 loads? But then Wright probably wasn't shooting 450 gr. NF's, was he?

Velocities would be nice, as long I'm asking for free information!

The way I measure groups the factory target is 0.75 inch and the six shots at the range are 1.5 inch. I have no experience with doubles, but this looks pretty good to me even for 25yrds - given shooter honesty about getting used to things. I agree, factory Hornady results would be interesting too.

I hope to hear more about trigger fixes. Other reports indicate, both excessive and unequal L vs R pulls.

MJines:

Yes, it was regulated with the 480 grain DGX. I should have ordered a box immediately, but haven't yet. I am curious to see how it (and I) does with a six shot group, and at what velocity. Once I receive them I will post my results.

500N:

If you only knew how good your point is! I could have probably stared in a "Three Stooges at the Range" movie while I was shooting that group. I was surprised that my group was as good as it was, my first two shots were a disaster. My first shot the rifle popped out of my front hand and departed the rest to the right. I'm lucky I had a good grip with my right hand or it would have landed on the ground. I ended my second shot looking over the scope down range, no follow through. I got my act together for the other four.

Cane Rat:

I know! Now that I'm going on my first Africa hunt next month I see the world through different eyes. I bet those nails add up to at least a Zebra every year...maybe I should invest in a home kit for her this Christmas, they've got to make those, right?

Will:

I do think I can get down to 1 1/2 inches with six good shots. When I shoot 50 this week I'll shoot off a bench, I'm guessing that will tighten up my group some.

I have the third edition of the book, he doesn't list loads for R-15 in that edition. He does mention R-15 in the book however, and it seems quite a few people here on the forum use that powder. The only concern I have, aside from not having a specific starting load, is that it seems to require a filler. I know that many have used fillers for a long time with excellent results, but I'm not comfortable with using them. At least not until I've spoken to somebody face to face, or better yet watched them load a couple of rounds.

In the third edition Wright mentions that when using R-15, fillers should be used on cases that are bigger than the 450 NE, suggesting that he feels it's ok to use that powder without fillers in that cartridge.

What do you think?

Unfortunately my chrono was giving me error messages (ERR2), so I have no readings. I had plenty of light and was at least 10 feet from the muzzle, so I'm hoping the battery was low. I'll give it another try next time.

Naki:

That's my fear as well, I will post my 50 yard groups with 97 grains and will also post groups with subsequent loads, should they be necessary. Another concern is my velocity, even if they do regulate. In GW's book the lists three "average" regulating loads for R19:

97 grains @ 2015 fps
99 grains @ 2075 fps
100 grains @ 2120 fps

All three with 480 grain Woodleigh bullets. I'm assuming those are three different rifles.

N E 450:

I was satisfied with the group, but know I can do better. However, if 4 inches at 50 is as good as it gets, that still puts me at 2 inches from point of aim, plenty good for elk, moose, and bear at the distances I usually hunt.

And even though I don't think I'll use this rifle in africa in September, I'm sure it would be just fine on Buffalo.

Fourbore:

You're right, many people measure center to center, I didn't consider that. So this probably does compare to a 1 1/2 inch group of other rifles.

quote:

In GW's book the lists three "average" regulating loads for R19:

97 grains @ 2015 fps
99 grains @ 2075 fps
100 grains @ 2120 fps

All three with 480 grain Woodleigh bullets. I'm assuming those are three different rifles.

The other thing is that Wright's data is probably from 28" barrels. Cutting the barrels to 24" will decrease those velocities. Might get a bit of a boost by shooting a 450 gr. NF solid but probably not as much as a 480 gr. Woodleigh solid.

By the time you get down to 94 grs. of RL-19 my guess they are puttering along well below 2000 ft/s. But maybe not. I hope to see what the velocities might be.

quote:

In the third edition Wright mentions that when using R-15, fillers should be used on cases that are bigger than the 450 NE, suggesting that he feels it's ok to use that powder without fillers in that cartridge.

What do you think?

I don't know. With 84 gr. of RL-15 and a 480 gr. Woodleigh soft or solid or a 450 gr. NF FPS there is still room for 1/2 of a Kynoch wad?

Is this close enough for not using a wad? Probably but who knows for sure!

Austringer said,
"In the book Wright states that the goal is to have left and right barrel groups superimposed upon one another..."

What you want is the right barrel to print slightly to the right of center and the left slightly to the left of center. They will then fly from here to eternity that far apart. Also, if you want something over the powder do not use a card, but instead, buy some pillow stuffing, which is polyester fiber. I bought "Poly-Fil," twenty ounces for $5. It'll last forever. You use about a lime-size ball over the powder. Pack it in with a pencil. It keeps the powder tight against the primer and greatly increases the consistency.

If you go to Africa and do not take your db rifle, you oughta be ashamed. Practice with it offhand, as much as you can, at about 50 yards. I personally hate scopes on such rifles, but some eyes mandate them.

The magazine for which I write uses center-to-center of farthest-spread shots, so your group is 1.6", and the factory is 0.8.

Good luck with your new rifle.

........Ray

quote:

Originally posted by Ray470:
Austringer said,
"In the book Wright states that the goal is to have left and right barrel groups superimposed upon one another..."

What you want is the right barrel to print slightly to the right of center and the left slightly to the left of center. They will then fly from here to eternity that far apart.
........Ray

That's what I try to achieve.

.

Ray:

After I work up a load with R19 I will probably give R15 a try, just to see what happens. In that case I will use a filler, not sure which type, but you just gave me one more option.

I think the slightly left and slightly right regulation makes a lot of sense, especially when shooting at long distances. I am guessing that when using the center of the individual barrel groups as the point of reference, there will be at least some overlapping of the barrels.

Yes, I have decided to take the rifle to Africa, but it will be my backup, not my primary...at least that's the plan at the moment.

I don't think I will keep the scope on the rifle for hunting, the plan was to mount it until I find a good load for the rifle. I spent a day at the range verifying that my groups don't seem to change much between scoped and open sights. I like aperture sights and eventually hope to find one that will work on this rifle.

Will:

Sorry, still no velocities! I was really hoping to have them by today, but I seem to be a little "chronographically" challenged where this rifle is concerned.

Today was my 50 yard day with 97 grains of R19 behind a 450 grain North Fork expanding bullet.

Unfortunately, there was a slight issue early on. I planned on everything going according to plan, so I only loaded six rounds for the Sabatti. Judging by my 25 yard group I was confident I would at least be on target at 50...no such luck, my first shot was about 1/2 inch off target. So, I only have a two-shot right barrel group on target.

Here's my Sabatti with scope mounted:





In addition to paying more attention to my shooting technique, I also shot from a rest this time. I made sure my position was upright, my hand holding the front stock supported on sandbags, and my elbows on sandbags as well.

This is the target:




Right barrel group (only two shots...) is 1.461" inches (1" center to center). I choose to believe the third shot would have been w/in that 1" as well:




The left barrel group was 1.340" (0.88" center to center). It looks like a two shot group, but the third shot is tucked up right next to the second:



Too bad I don't know where that first right barrel shot would have ended up, but, from what I have at the moment it looks like the centers of my two groups are just under and inch apart at 50 yards.

I'm thinking of upping my charge from 97 to 98 grains to see what happens.

Also, it appears the right barrel shoots just under one inch higher than the left, center to center.

I just realized I never measured my group as a whole. It turned out to be 2.767" (2.309" center to center).

We can do better...

I think you are doing a great job with a new rifle. I think since you are using a scope it is time to adjust the scope. Have you shot the rifle with the scope off at 25 and 50 yards?
Bill

quote:

Originally posted by Austringer:
I am guessing that when using the center of the individual barrel groups as the point of reference, there will be at least some overlapping of the barrels....

I spent a day at the range verifying that my groups don't seem to change much between scoped and open sights....

I like aperture sights and eventually hope to find one that will work on this rifle.

Yes, the two groups will intermingle a bit. I'm surprised at your results with and without the scope. That's good. You may have to get a custom aperture made. I too like them but never had one on a db rifle. However, I never had one with that convenient rib.

If I had a scope mounted as far rearward as you have it, the scope would make a tunnel into my eye socket several inches deep. I'd prefer a scout-scope setup, if possible.

Austringer,
1st of all, nice rifle, congrats!!! Is the front sling swivel stud sweated on or screwed on?

Front swivel is screwed on w/two screws.

quote:

Front swivel is screwed on w/two screws.

Thanks Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Ray470:

If I had a scope mounted as far rearward as you have it, the scope would make a tunnel into my eye socket several inches deep. I'd prefer a scout-scope setup, if possible.

Ray, I hear that a lot from people, I always mount my scopes very far back. Actually, this scope is not far enough back for me, I was able to move it far enough back to use the 1.5 magnification, but anyting higher than that won't work for me.

I don't move my head forward when I shoot, so I end up far back be default.

In case you're interested, the saga continues. The link below is to a new post titled, "Sabatti-Regulated at 50 yards."

http://forums.accuratereloadin...091020931#9091020931