A friend of mine wants a ball park figure on a Charles Lancaster 450NE Double for insurance purposes, I don't think it is a big dollar double & he only sent me a couple of photos & no real description on barrel condition or such but thought I would give him a idea & enquire here on the action .

I think the action has been refinished & I have not seen a reinforced action like this on a English rifle before but others here may have, I do think it is less desirable with this reinforced action & no doubt it will be heavier & less desirable than a lively 450NE ?

It's got a screw grip and side clips Theo bolster is certainly different

$15.000 - 18.000,- if the overall condition and barrels are very good..

It looks like it had a restock a long time ago and the wood/metal fit is not very good..

With the current down market--

think Pondoro's estimate is on the high side

Has it Oval bore barrels?

What do the barrel flats say? I have seen this action in Belgium guns. The trade wasn't always picky where they obtained their actions and Lancaster definitely did not make this action. Not to say there is anything wrong with such and action from a mechanical point of view. Just not aesthetically pleasing to me.

Thank you for the comments, I don't have a lot of the info I would want or had it in hand, just thought it was ugly myself & that would effect the price down would or some interest as it was rare ?

As has been said looks to be Webley Screw Grip of some type, as such should be English I would think, it is in a Lancaster case with label (only have a pic of label, don't know if Oak & Leather or not) I will give him my thoughts .

It was his Grandads & has taken a fair few head of big game, Ele's & more !

Sarg,
It doesn't look like a Webley to me. The third fastener rib extension is similar to the Webley screw grip, but the action appears VERY different to the Webley style.

It doesn't look anything like a Belgian gun to me either. The majority of Belgian DR's featured either a Greener type third fastener, a concealed third fastener, or no third fastener at all.

It's not at all uncommon to find Lancaster boxlock DR's which have large prominent bolsters. This gun certainly has huge bolsters, that's for sure.

It looks like a Pommie double to me, and a photo of the barrel flat proofs will reveal a lot about the gun.

Can we get a picture of the Barrel Flats and the Water Table?
Any Address or Name on the Barrels or Rib?
Proof Marks can go along way in determining origin

I have a reprint of Charles Lancaster s 1914 cataloge, it is what they call a "body action hammerless rifle" grade B or C..

The reprint of the pic is rather bad but it seems to be the same action sans the bolsters, perhaps the bolsters were added on the larger calibers...?

These rifles could be ordered in a lot of calibers from .256 to .600

Prices from 35 - 55 Guineas

From what little I know of double rifles, this one would sell quickly at 8K and 10K would take some effort. The market seems slow except for higher end doubles (those buyers will always have money).
As this may be a European-made rifle I would think 10K is a fair price to sell it. For an insurance appraisal, 12-15K. I do appraisals of double rifles. You can see samples on my website <calpappas.com>
Cheers,
Cal

For a collector Oval bore barrells would make the double more desireable.

Had the chance a few years ago to buy a Charles Lancaster Side lock .450 N.E. with pristine Oval Bores, still regret it...

Interesting....have any of you any knowledge about how good these oval bores performed..?

Was easy cleaning its biggest vertue..?

Lancaster promoted them strongly but later gave them up to conventinal rifling. I have a Mannlicher-Schönauer made by C.L. in 1906 that is conventonally rifled so apparently the made both..

The oval bore is wonderful to clean for black powder but really no difference with smokeless. And, with the stout bullets (compared to lead of the era) I would imagine it was difficult to get the bullets to bump up to take the oval shape. That is probably why L. dropped the oval idea.
Cal

Thanks Cal...I think you are spot on here..

Sarg;

I contacted my friend Douglas Tate, the noted British gun and rifle authority, primarily ofBirmingham guns and Rifles. He is the author of a number of books on British firearms and his book: "BIRMINGHAM GUNMAKERS" Safari Press 1997, is the authority publication on the subject. Additionally Doug has written 252 articles for "Shooting Sportsman Magazine" and a score of articles for the "Field" and other publications in the UK.

Here is what Doug says about the Lancaster DR your friend has:

"Steve;

I have never seen a British gun with such deep bolsters. The screw grip certainly suggest W&C Scott/Webley & Scott. This easily checked out by comparing the Lancaser number on the tang to the 5 digit number on or near the barrel loop. Other things you can do is look for a trade mark or see if the British Proof Marks have circles around them which indicates 'Not English Made'. I have seen Hollis double rifles that were clearly brought in from Continental Europe, but never a Lancaster. A quick look through (my) Lancaster sales catalogues reveal nothing like this .450 NE."

https://www.google.no/search?q...rc=l-ZJsJBzpOvrzM%3A

With luck in posting this is a more upgrade version of a beefed up Lancaster action...

It seems outworkers made rifles for this or that company when times were lean, perhaps that is the case with this rifle as a lower grade weapon..?

I don't see anything on that gun which would suggest it is a Webley.
Nothing.

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
From what little I know of double rifles, this one would sell quickly at 8K and 10K would take some effort. The market seems slow except for higher end doubles (those buyers will always have money).
As this may be a European-made rifle I would think 10K is a fair price to sell it. For an insurance appraisal, 12-15K. I do appraisals of double rifles. You can see samples on my website <calpappas.com>
Cheers,
Cal

Cal, I didn't realize DR prices had dropped so low.
This is a pre war 450 No2 NE double, proofed in England, showing a well known makers name, with extended top strap, in reportedly sound condition, and cased, yet it would be hard to sell at $10,000?
(Note that AFAIK the gun is NOT offered for sale).
Perhaps low prices on the vintage stuff is a result of the market being flooded with Merkel, Heym, Krieghoff, VC, Sabatti and others?

quote:

Originally posted by 5seventy:

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
From what little I know of double rifles, this one would sell quickly at 8K and 10K would take some effort. The market seems slow except for higher end doubles (those buyers will always have money).
As this may be a European-made rifle I would think 10K is a fair price to sell it. For an insurance appraisal, 12-15K. I do appraisals of double rifles. You can see samples on my website <calpappas.com>
Cheers,
Cal

Cal, I didn't realize DR prices had dropped so low.
This is a pre war 450 No2 NE double, proofed in England, showing a well known makers name, with extended top strap, in reportedly sound condition, and cased, yet it would be hard to sell at $10,000?
(Note that AFAIK the gun is NOT offered for sale).
Perhaps low prices on the vintage stuff is a result of the market being flooded with Merkel, Heym, Krieghoff, VC, Sabatti and others?

5seventy;

I can't seem to find in this post where the English proof marks for this DR are confirmed, stated or photographed. Have you been able to see this DR and it's proof marks independent of this post? If so will you be so kind as to post the photos of the proof marks.

Sarg posted some more pictures over on NE.
It is a 450No.2, English proofed.

Methinks it is a Lancaster "Assisted Opening" action or "wristbreaker" as they are often called.
The third bite is a Webley A&WC style clipped spade screw grip. Not sure if it is actually to the Webley design, but surely very similar.

quote:

Originally posted by Huvius:
Sarg posted some more pictures over on NE.
It is a 450No.2, English proofed.

Methinks it is a Lancaster "Assisted Opening" action or "wristbreaker" as they are often called.
The third bite is a Webley A&WC style clipped spade screw grip. Not sure if it is actually to the Webley design, but surely very similar.

Thanks for pointing out the Nitro Express forum entry, and photos of the proof marks. Note, that the barrels are stamped "CL" for Charles Lancaster as well. However, it is not a famed wristbreaker action as those were sidelock actions. It must have been a real work horse in its day.

quote:

Originally posted by Huvius:

Methinks it is a Lancaster "Assisted Opening" action or "wristbreaker" as they are often called.

Yes, I agree that it is indeed a Lancaster gun, and the action indeed appears to have assisted opening as often seen on Lancaster doubles.
The steel cross piece which can be seen in the barrel flats photo over on NE, gives the game away.

quote:

Originally posted by Transvaal:
However, it is not a famed wristbreaker action as those were sidelock actions. It must have been a real work horse in its day.

Lancaster also built boxlock guns with that type of (Beesley) cocking system.

As more comes to light, my 10K estimate may be a bit low, but not by much. However, I only saw one photo to base my judgement.
Cal

Thank you for the help & opinions guys, much appreciated, I have added some more pic's to .

I thought this unusual action may be of interest !

quote:

Originally posted by 5seventy:

quote:

Originally posted by Transvaal:
However, it is not a famed wristbreaker action as those were sidelock actions. It must have been a real work horse in its day.

Lancaster also built boxlock guns with that type of (Beesley) cocking system.

Yes, I almost got a 303 which was very similar in layout to this 450.
Assisted opening - very strong springs, extended top strap but not a bolstered frame.
I actually think that is why Lancaster chose to use an extended top strap - you have to exert a lot of pressure on the top of the grip to close the action and the "spring" open with quite a jolt too.
Once you had a technique of holding the barrels further down past the forend and the stock firmly in your hip, closing wasn't so bad although not what I would want in a DG rifle.
It had oval bores with the right much more worn than the left and I just couldn't get it to group at all.

570, Huvius, Sarg et al;

Thanks for the direction to the photo on Nitro Express, and I can see the self opening cross bar and the screw in the frame. I also do not see Nitro Proof marks with the Cordite proof mark. The NP marks are usually near the breech end of the barrel flats. The absence (if they are absent) of the NP marks may indicate that the DR was proofed before 1904 and help in dating it.

Sarg; Hopefully your interest in the DR will help your friend learn that the DR had a celebrity owner in the past, and he can add another zero (0) to the price.

We all will be grateful to you if you could photos of the action flats and action face for this interesting DR.



Transvaal

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
The oval bore is wonderful to clean for black powder but really no difference with smokeless. And, with the stout bullets (compared to lead of the era) I would imagine it was difficult to get the bullets to bump up to take the oval shape. That is probably why L. dropped the oval idea.
Cal

As I recall, Cal, Lancaster dropped the oval bore in the 1920s because the higher velocity of then modern powders made it too difficult to regulate with just an oval bore. Believe that info is the 1924 Lancaster catalogue, which, as Pondoro reports (2013 post) they just say conventional rifling works better...
Regards, Tim

5seventy;

After my post above, specifically about the NP nitro proof stamp absence from the barrel flats and that maybe the DR proofed before 1904, I went over to the Nitro Express forum again and read where the original owner left England in 1922. I then looked in detail at the barrel flats photo and there is a "P" stamped as well as several other stamping that are faintly visible. There may have been a "N" with the P originally and it has been deleted during a gunmaker/gunsmith repair by filing the flats down a bit to get the DR on face properly after a hinge pin replacement in the past.

Thanks for bringing attention to all you have on this DR.

quote:

Originally posted by Tim Carney:

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
The oval bore is wonderful to clean for black powder but really no difference with smokeless. And, with the stout bullets (compared to lead of the era) I would imagine it was difficult to get the bullets to bump up to take the oval shape. That is probably why L. dropped the oval idea.
Cal

As I recall, Cal, Lancaster dropped the oval bore in the 1920s because the higher velocity of then modern powders made it too difficult to regulate with just an oval bore. Believe that info is the 1924 Lancaster catalogue, which, as Pondoro reports (2013 post) they just say conventional rifling works better...
Regards, Tim

I think the reason to leave the Oval Bore concept was cost. Why bother to be alone on the market with a different rifling concept when all the others used rifled bores that could be bought from many different suppliers.

quote:

Originally posted by Huvius:
I actually think that is why Lancaster chose to use an extended top strap - you have to exert a lot of pressure on the top of the grip to close the action and the "spring" open with quite a jolt too.

Huvius,
Ok, that makes sense for sure.
Looking at the photos the other day I was thinking it was quite unusual to see an extended top strap on an otherwise plain working double.
You've answered that question, thanks.

quote:

Originally posted by Transvaal:
5seventy;

After my post above, specifically about the NP nitro proof stamp absence from the barrel flats and that maybe the DR proofed before 1904, I went over to the Nitro Express forum again and read where the original owner left England in 1922. I then looked in detail at the barrel flats photo and there is a "P" stamped as well as several other stamping that are faintly visible. There may have been a "N" with the P originally and it has been deleted during a gunmaker/gunsmith repair by filing the flats down a bit to get the DR on face properly after a hinge pin replacement in the past.

Thanks for bringing attention to all you have on this DR.

Transvaal,
Yes, some of the proofs are pretty shallow and hard to make out.
I still think the proofs are most likely from post 1904 though, due to the way the charge and bullet weight are stamped. CORDITE 80-480 MAX
What do you think?

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
As more comes to light, my 10K estimate may be a bit low, but not by much. However, I only saw one photo to base my judgement.
Cal

Cal, I wasn't suggesting that your estimate was wrong, I was just surprised to hear that DR values have dropped to a point where an English .450 Nitro Double would only bring around $10k.
I agree it was pretty hard to tell much just from that first photo.

I imagine that estimate would be for a private rather than dealer price?

quote:

Originally posted by 5seventy:

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
As more comes to light, my 10K estimate may be a bit low, but not by much. However, I only saw one photo to base my judgement.
Cal

Cal, I wasn't suggesting that your estimate was wrong, I was just surprised to hear that DR values have dropped to a point where an English .450 Nitro Double would only bring around $10k.
I agree it was pretty hard to tell much just from that first photo.

I imagine that estimate would be for a private rather than dealer price?

Yes, it was. Dealers charge a premium. Also, an English rifle is higher valued than a European rifle with English proof marks. Again, one photos does not show much. It all depends on how long one wants to hold on to the rifle or if they want to sell it rather quickly.
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by 5seventy:

quote:

Originally posted by Transvaal:
5seventy;

After my post above, specifically about the NP nitro proof stamp absence from the barrel flats and that maybe the DR proofed before 1904, I went over to the Nitro Express forum again and read where the original owner left England in 1922. I then looked in detail at the barrel flats photo and there is a "P" stamped as well as several other stamping that are faintly visible. There may have been a "N" with the P originally and it has been deleted during a gunmaker/gunsmith repair by filing the flats down a bit to get the DR on face properly after a hinge pin replacement in the past.

Thanks for bringing attention to all you have on this DR.

Transvaal,
Yes, some of the proofs are pretty shallow and hard to make out.
I still think the proofs are most likely from post 1904 though, due to the way the charge and bullet weight are stamped. CORDITE 80-480 MAX
What do you think?

570;

I think the same as you, and I think that there is enough of the 1904-1925 proof marks there to state that the DR was nitro proofed. In 1921 Col Playfair, Master, of the Birmingham Proof House begin having the proof inspectors stamp a date code and inspectors code mark on the barrel flats--sometimes called "secret" proof marks, by those who do not know the codes. This DR does not have those inspectors/date marks stamped.

A full length photo.

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:

Yes, it was. Dealers charge a premium. Also, an English rifle is higher valued than a European rifle with English proof marks. Again, one photos does not show much. It all depends on how long one wants to hold on to the rifle or if they want to sell it rather quickly.
Cal

DR pricing certainly has changed over the years.
Back around 1981 I had the chance to buy 2 Jeffery boxlock 450-400 3" NE doubles. I had them on loan for 2 weeks and shot them both with Kynoch ammo.
Both guns were sound but had done a fair amount of work, and both were cased.
The price was $1700 Aus each!
Sounds cheap, but of course seventeen hundred bucks could buy a lot more back then than now.
I wanted one badly, but didn't buy either of them however, just couldn't afford to at the time.

Aussie was crazy back in the day with hundreds of Doubles coming over from India, lots of them basket cases
So Australia ended up with some of the best double restockers & repairs guys around, second only to England back then, unfortunately for us the pull of the US dollar saw most of them leave our shores & quadruple in cost not necessarily value !

I'm thinking this old guy is US$12000 to US$16000, any others have thoughts on that ?

'Antiques Roadshow' seems to value the goods then advise the owner to insure for more