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Continueing a discussion about Taylor's favorite cartridges. Sorry for the delay but I misplaced my copy of his book "Big Game and Big Game Rifles" which is my source. I can't find the other one titled ? "I have killed more elephant with the 450 No. 2 and .465-bores than with all my other rifles put together. They will, either of them, satisfactorily answer any questions that you could ever wish to ask them." Page 67. He goes on to state that if he had to choose it would be the 465 but only because, "...Holland & Holland build their .465 to average a pound lighter than similar rifles built by their contemporaries." "The ideal battery for elephant hunting consist of a non-ejector double rifle throwing a 480- or 500-grain bullet for use in thick cover, with or without a high-velocity medium- or large-medium-bore magazine rifle for use in the open. (the proffesional should also have a double .577- or .600- bore.)" Page 69. "The ideal battery for rhino hunting in thick bush consist of a double rifle throwing a bullet of not less than 400 grains, and preferably 480 or 500 grains. In open country any modern rifle firing bluff-nosed bullets will do." Page 74. "...nevertheless, I consider that 400 grains is the minimum weight of bullet which ought ever to be taken against buffalo in thick cover" and the hevier the bullet the better." Page 85. "The best weapon for buffalo hunting in thick cover is a double rifle throwing a bullet of not less than 400 grains: and the heavier the bullet the better. In the open a medium-bore or large-medium-bore magazine rifle will be found quite satisfactory." Page 86 "The best weapon for lion hunting is a powerful double rifle-and the heavier the bullet the better when following up a wounded beast." Page 96. "An ideal battery for the sportsman whose funds are limited consist of a best-quality double .465 or .470 non-ejector (or similar) and a Jeffey .404 magazine regulated for both standard and high-velocity ammunition. (This, of course, if you expect to be doing a considerable amount of elephant hunting: if not, but only a reasonable amount, then Holland's .375 will prove every bit as good--and probably would in any case.)" NOTE: I beleive the comment about the 375 H&H was intended to indicate that one could swap the 375 for the 404 and not that 375 could substitue for both the big bore double and the 404. Page 124. "...a side lock .450 no. 2 which was for some years my favorite rifle." "... the bores were badly coroded and worn. Had it not been for that fact, I might still have been using that same .450 No. 2. Yet is spite of the disgraceful manner in which it had been ill-treated and neglected by its previous owner, it killed somewhere in the vicinity of 300 elephant for me." Page 179. In the following passages Taylor is discussing the need for fewer chamberings and his wish that the gunmakers would cull some chamberings for simplicity, note that Taylor distinguishes between the all around (his veiw) 400 Jeffery and the 404 Jeffery form the "rifles primarily intended for use against heavy and dangerous game" which he lists as "the .450's and.500's". "For the man who does a fair amount of work amoungst dangerous game and does not feel that he would have genuine confidence in a bullet of not less than 400 grains, there is the .400 which has long proved itself: with the .404 as its magazine edition." As opposed to, "When we get to rifles primarily intended for use against heavy and dangerous game...the .450"s and .500's..." Page 211. On his all time favorite, "...I have shot about 100 elephant with a 26" barreled .470...about double the number of elephant with the .465, and around three times the number with the .450 No. 2." Page 212. "I have used two different .465's...four different .450 No. 2's.." Page 209. It seems pretty obvious to me that Taylor preferred rifles in the 450-470 class for hunting both elephants and buffalo, and also following up lions. He list 400 grains as a minimum bullet weight too many times to consider any rifle shooting that weight bullet as a favorite, though it obviously makes the cut in his veiw. JPK  Free 500grains | ||
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It seems Taylor had a few favorites, but the one he kept coming back to was the 450/400NE Jeffery! In any event, the 450/400NE 3" Jeffery is my favorite, in the .400 cal or larger,and the 9.3X74R or the 375 H&H flanged in the under 400 cal!  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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Why would a non ejctor model be perferred? My biggest fear is when I die my wife will sell my guns for what I told her they cost. | |||
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If what you're trying to shoot was not impressed with your first shot(s) there's a chance he might not have located your position and the "PING" of your ejectors tossing out empties would give away your position. DB Bill aka Bill George | |||
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Noise from either ejecting a fired shell(s) or a shell hitting the ground/rock, or both. This tells the DG WHERE you are  DRSS member Constant change is here to stay. | |||
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Mac, Maybe what you say is true, but John Taylor used a 450 range rifle for the vast bulk of his hunting, and clearly tells all that the 450 range is preffered. But again he frequently gives the nod to a 450/400 as being enough for occasional use for DG - and I suspect "occasional" was alot of game compared to what an guy is likely to shoot today. On ejectors, When you are trying to shoot more than one elephant from a herd the ejectors could be an issue I think. I have had cows come looking for the "PING" of the ejectors which is damn loud in the circumstances. On the other hand, I have only tried to kill two elephants from a single herd twice, and the second was only a thought because the first was stone dead with the first shot. Didn't get two either time but it wasn't because of the "PING". I think in Taylor's situation, trying to bring down as many elephants in a herd as he could, the ejectors could be an issue; when its not a big deal whether you kill two or more out of a herd the ejectors are the better choice because they are faster, period. Mac, I was tempted to quote Taylor on rimless rounds in a double - he is a fan - and also on single triggers - he is also a fan- (though I am not.) JPK Free 500grains | |||
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In present day elephant hunting the noise made by ejectors is pretty much irrelevant. ------------------------------- Will Stewart / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor Member, GOA, N.A.G.R. _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ Hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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From "African Rifles and Cartridges" by John Taylor, p.115 "For some reason I find it difficult to explain I derived greater pleasure from using the .400 than any other caliber; and no weapon behaved more successfully in my hands. There is something about the double .400 that just seems to suit me. I would happily finish the rest of my career with a pair of them and nothing else- unless it was a third, just to give me a set of three. p.116 And right here I strongly recommend the double .400 for African big game hunting. In the light of my own experience, I'm perfectly convinced that you will not find a more generally satisfactory weapon. I contend that the .400 double was HIS PERSONAL favorite. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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450 NE No 2, OK, lets say this is so, why then was he always using a 450 class rifle? I think Taylor was on to something with his KO values, though he drew too much prediction from them, and I don't think he thought he was too far off either. KO values, and his associated predictions say use a 450 class rifle, and he did. I need to find his other book to see if his opinion changed over time. JPK Free 500grains | |||
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JPK, Give it up! Taylor, I think, tried to be all things to all people. Hence, some conflicting statements. It really doesn't matter as you will not change the opinions of the 400 crowd, but of course under all bad conditions that might be encountered the 450's are better than the 400's and that is just a fact of life. ------------------------------- Will Stewart / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor Member, GOA, N.A.G.R. _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ Hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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If we can believe Taylor used all the rifles he claims to have used I sumise it went something like this. He started out with the 450 class of doubles, and found them perfectly satisfactory. He tried the bigger guns the 577 and 600 and found them to be a good insurance policy when after elephants in the very thick. But too big and heavy for general use, or to be carried by the hunter. When he got around to using the .400 he had experience with the other doubles and realized it would do all that was required, and be lighter and kick less to boot. Also remember, he was first and formost an elephant hunter/poacher, where I would agree that the 450 No2 was just about perfect. However, in the end I think the .400 was HIS personal favorite. It is the gun he used on the Great Tana Raid, he loaned his 500/465 out. You do not loan out your favorite rifle. Also as he got older the lighter, less kicking rifle was probably more suited to him, as it will be to most of the AR members. My favorite rifle is my 450 No2 double, but my Safaris revolve mostly around elephants. On my last Safari I proved to myself that a scoped 450/400 is the BEST double to carry on a modern Safari where you are hunting a full bag. I felt much better when shooting my lion at @90 yards with the scope on the 400 than I would with iron sights. I feel for most modern Safari hunters the 400 is a better choice, as they will use the rifle a lot more here in the States, thus they will shoot it well when in Africa. My 450 No2 is just too heavy to carry in Alaska or on a back pack hunt in Montana, I have used the 400 twice in AK and twice in MT. Now that it is scoped, I will be using it even more. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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450 NE No 2, I got the feeling that he loaned out the bigger rifle to a less experienced fellow, which would be wise since the benefits of the bigger rifle are less apparent the more experience and the better elephant hunter you become, given, I guess, that you keep your hand in it and don't go stale. You may be right about the weight/recoil/age considerations for Taylor, I'll throw in his experience which would allow for less rifle. What does your 450 weigh? How 'bout your 450/400 with and without scope? I like the weight of my rifle at 10 1/2lbs. If I were going to go with a 450/400 I wouldn't want it to weigh more than 9 1/2lbs w/o scope and preferably less. My bolt 375 weighs 8 3/4lbs w/o scope 9 1/4lbs with a Leupold 1.5x5 and 9 1/2lbs with a Swarovski 1.25x4. JPK Free 500grains | |||
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I just received my copy of this book. He also seemed to speak glowingly of the 375 H&H. I found his writings on the 470 rather interesting. He suspected the extra taper in the bullets may have lead to deflection on brain shots of three elephant he killed but had to make a follow-up shot. He could only summize this to be the case because he was unable to "disect" the bullet from the animal due to the fact that he was poaching them at the time.  Now imagine if you will, if someone back in the day had the foresight to collect all of those double rifles chambered in the various 450 cartridges banned by the Brits and brought them back to the States for safe keeping. We can only wish. | |||
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