I recently purchased a new Chapuis DR in 30 R Blaser from Carl Buch off the forum classified, perfect transaction, nice rifle. I ordered scope rings with it and mounted a scope to make the regulating process easier, not sure if I'll keep it on. Interesting cartridge, supposed to do over 2,800 fps with a 180 gr. bullet, but not much loading data available. What I could find indicated that 64 gr. Reloader 22 behind a 180 gr. bullet would come close to duplicating the RWS loads that were used by the factory for regulation, which I think was ay 2,860 fps. So I loaded up pairs of loads with 61, 62, 63, and 64 gr. of Rel 22 behind 180 gr. Nosler solid base bullets and headed to the range. I've tried to post pictures below using a Photobucket link, but most of the groups had the right and left barrel bullet holes touching, or nearly so, at 50 yards. Good so far, but it appeared that the barrels were crossing ever so slightly, and velocities were quite a bit lower than factory posted velocities. So I loaded up another batch and went back to the range and repeated the process at 100 yards, and confirmed that the barrels are crossing, and the crossing increases as powder charge and velocities increase, as I expected.
My question is what to do next, if anything. Increasing powder and velocity with this bullet/powder combo will only increase the crossing issue. Should I try a lighter or heavier bullet, say 165 gr. or 190-200 gr.? Or is it reasonable to think that a different powder might have a positive impact on 180 gr. velocities and the crossing effect? Or should I simply be thrilled that it shoots as accurately as it does, load up a bunch of cartridges with 61 gr. at about 2520 fps, and enjoy the gun?
Your thoughts and constructive suggestions will be most appreciated.

You'll need a heavier bullet if you continue to use this powder.
Have you used a chrony on these loads of WAG?


Snowwolfe has this round all figured out already. PM him about the loads.

I cant be of much help Mike. My go to load for this rifle is 62 grains of RL22 under a 180 grain Nosler Partition. Shoots really well so I never bothered to chronograph it. One of these days after we get settled at our new place I plan on trying some IMR 4831 as well as RL19 and run them through the chrono.

Bwana, what are your velocities?

As a general rule I don't pay much attention to velocity of factory ammo in doubles because it never seems to come close to what they advertise. Have you been able to run the factory RWS rounds over the chrono or are you just trusting their advertised speed is correct?

All of the shots were over a PACT chrono, too bad I can't get the Photobucket URL to transfer to my post, as I listed charges and velocities with each group. The 61 gr. load was 2520 fps, gradual increase with 62 & 63 gr., the 64 gr. load was 2640. I do not have any RWS loads, just citing their posted data. I am happy with the accuracy and not overly concerned about the velocity, I'll just be shooting white tails and black bears at less than 100 yards. But since I have the time, the chrono, and an accurate gun I thought it would be interesting to try to eliminate the crossing, and the suggestion to go with a heavier bullet seems like a logical next step.

IMO you don't NEED 2800 fps. We get far too caught up in the perpetual search for the nth degree of velocity. Switch to a Premium bullet, like the Nosler Partition, and slow them down until the barrels quit crossing. The rifle will still handily kill any animal that should reasonably be hunted with it. As an example, a couple of years ago, I killed a big eland bull at 160 yards, with one shot, with my .303 double. I was using my handloads with 176 grain Hornady RNSP's. When I got home I got around to chronographing this load. I was getting 1975 fps!!! A good bullet, properly placed, is the most important factor in the equation.

Best of luck and have fun with it!!

No disagreement here, I'm not troubled by the lower velocities. BTW, I did follow up the Nosler SB bullets with 180 gr. Partitions, same powder charges, same results within 10fps, maybe 1/8" larger groups, still crossing. Just curious, I guess, thinking that the rifle was supposedly regulated with 180 gr. bullets at over 2800fps, what can I do to get it to shoot to 100 yd. without crossing. Yes, I could probably achieve it if I settle for 2300-2400 fps, but I don't give up that easy. I'd rather have a 200 gr. bullet regulate properly at 2500 fps than a 180 gr bullet that crosses at the same velocity. Nothing to lose by playing with it a little longer...

I did a bunch of experimenting with the 9.3x74r in a Chapuis, a few years back. I did see a difference in regulation when I used moderate burning rate powders compared to slower burning rate powders. My memory tells me that I had crossing with 4064 but not 4831 at similar velocities. That work was with only one rifle. I did not see change of point of impact with the same loads in two different drillings of the same caliber. I had another one a few years later, but didn't get to do the same amount of shooting with it.
Not sure if it will make a difference, but maybe a slightly slower powder might move the bullets a little further apart.
Bfly

I thought about different powders, specifically, different burn rates. Reloader 22 is already a little on the slow side for a 180 gr. bullet in .30 caliber with a target velocity of 2700-2900fps. Slower burning than IMR4831 or H4831. However, there is still plenty of room in the case, and no pressure signs up to 65 gr. Rel 22. If the increase in bullet weight to 200 gr. (with a careful adjustment in powder charge using Rel 22) doesn't produce the desired results, I'll probably move to faster (e.g. Rel 19 or 4350) and slower (Rel 25 or H1000) powders using the original 180 gr. Nosler SB bullets. I need to be mindful of changing only one variable at a time, or a good result will be disguised and lost in a myriad of changes.

I would try dropping the powder charge a bit, or...
I would try a couple of slightly faster burning powders. Start low and work up of course.

I still have a hunch that IMR 4831 will help you out. Used it in my 9,3x74R, 450/400 and 450 NE. Plan on trying it myself as soon as my 30R comes back from getting a trigger job, which should be within a week or so.

I can tell you that the RWS 180 factory load didn't make 2800 out of my gun. Can't spot the chrono sheets at the moment, was low 27 range as I remember it. 165 didn't crack 28 either if I remember correctly.

Big_Bwana, keep trying and it will work out.
Those guns are great guns.

Not bringing anyone down or anything, but everyone always comes down on Sabatti because they might cross and so forth.
Both of mine shoot like $ 50,000.00 guns. And with all kinds of different loads and bullets and brass.
Just my 10 cents.

Try 200 grainers. You need more recoil/jump; not more velocity.
I have the opposite problem with my 8mm chapuis; it won't get closer than 4 inches at 50 yards no matter what I did. And I paid for 100 meter regulation with a scope. It is back in France right now.

quote:

Originally posted by big_bwana:
No disagreement here, I'm not troubled by the lower velocities. BTW, I did follow up the Nosler SB bullets with 180 gr. Partitions, same powder charges, same results within 10fps, maybe 1/8" larger groups, still crossing. Just curious, I guess, thinking that the rifle was supposedly regulated with 180 gr. bullets at over 2800fps, what can I do to get it to shoot to 100 yd. without crossing. Yes, I could probably achieve it if I settle for 2300-2400 fps, but I don't give up that easy. I'd rather have a 200 gr. bullet regulate properly at 2500 fps than a 180 gr bullet that crosses at the same velocity. Nothing to lose by playing with it a little longer...

Big-Bwana, The first load was still a little too fast causing the crossing. If you were going by the advertised velocity by the ammo maker that was your first mistake. The ammo factories develop their ammo in 30 inch test barrels, and your double is likely fitted with 24 inch or shorter barrels and would have been regulated with slower velocity.

I would go back to the original load and slow it till it regulates properly. Ron Vella is correct, you simply do not need 2800 fps with a (280) TYPO correction(180) gr .308 bullet for anything you should hunt with this chambering. Regulation is far more important in a double rifle!

................................................................. good hunting!

quote:

Originally posted by ron vella:
a couple of years ago, I killed a big eland bull at 160 yards, with one shot, with my .303 double. I was using my handloads with 176 grain Hornady RNSP's.
When I got home I got around to chronographing this load. I was getting 1975 fps!!! A good bullet, properly placed, is the most important factor in the equation.

thanks for sharing that and for sobering some peoples velocity-energy freak minds.

Please do not overly concern yourself with velocity. Regulation is all that matters. Printing rounds next to each other on a target beats everything else. You have to experiment. Find THE bullet and THE powder that regulates in your rifle!
Very good advice above!

http://i1266.photobucket.com/a...30R%20Blaser%201.jpg
[IMG]
This photo shows the first 2 groups from the rifle at 50 yards, both using 61 gr. Reloader 22 and chrono said 2520 and 2530 fps avg for each 2 shots, left and right barrel.
http://i1266.photobucket.com/a...Blaser%202.jpg[/IMG]
This photo shows the same load at 100 yards, note the crossover.
http://forums.accuratereloadin...orm_images/blank.gif
This photo shows 2 targets with increased powder and velocity at 100 yards. Note that the crossover is greater with the hotter loads.

I just wanted to get these photos up to clarify the situation. I found some 200 gr bullets, will test them at the range tomorrow.

Thanks for all of the input, I'll post results when I have them.

There is no 3rd image Bwanna.

Mike,
Thanks for pulling up the images. Not sure why I'm getting the URL up, but not the images. I must be missing a step...





So, if I managed to do it right, these are the targets from 100 yards with 180 gr. bullets. Crossing is evident, and more pronounced with the hotter loads.
Off to the range to try 200 gr. bullets.

You've got it dialed in now! (The pictures anyway)

Use a heavier bullet or slow it down!

Another more drastic measure is to ask about returning it to the factory or elsewhere and have it regulated again.

Here are the targets from todays effort, 4 different groups right/left barrel, all shot from 50 yards, all with 200 gr. Barnes Originals, 4 different charges of Reloader 22. Perfect shooting day, sunny, calm, and 60-70F. Shot from a bench, my left wrist rested on bags holding the forearm, leather beanbag supporting the butt. Extremely steady, not saying there is no chance for human error to have crept in, but all of the shots felt good.
Observations: 1. The only crossing shots were the lowest charge/lowest velocity. Human error? Or cold barrels, maybe some cleaning fluid residual?
2. None of the other left-right groups were crossing, but 2 were very close, similar to the 180 gr. groups at 50 yards, except left on left, right on right. I love it when guns shoot nearly to the same hole, but I'm thinking we're going to get crossers again when we go to 100 yards.
3. Only the 4th group, at the highest charge and velocity, is significantly separated right - left.
4. All of the velocities are lower than with the 180 gr. bullets, some by nearly 300 fps. Yet no real pronounced separation left from right except at the highest velocity. Maybe this gun is shooting how the factory regulated it to shoot, spot on with both barrels at 50 yards, and crossing at all distances beyond. Is that so bad if that is what it is? After all, I won't fire both barrels at once so no worry about them colliding mid-flight! LOL!
I guess the proof will be 100 yard groups with the same loads, maybe a few with even lower charges and velocities in both 180 and 200 gr.

Thoughts?

I would definitely not base my decision making on two shots, regardless of how good the shot felt. When I am regulating a double, I fire AT LEAST six shots, three from each barrel, with time allowed to cool down between sets. Six shots gives one a pretty solid foundation upon which to decide. There are just too many variables at work to rely on a single right and left!

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Yep; try a slower powder for more recoil and barrel time, if it is crossing. BTW, you aren't "regulating" your DR; that was done at the factory. When we make loads to make the rifles shoot like it was regulated to do, I am not sure what to call that. Hell, regulation is as good a word as any.

I think loading to regulation could be the best description as you are trying to duplicate the load it was regulated with.
Bill

As I understand it, the gun was regulated at the factory with no scope. You have since added a scope. This usually changes the equation. Quite honestly a slight cross over in a hunting rifle would not concern me much. Yes, if concerned slow it down with less powder or heavier bullet. I would just take it out and kill things with it. Enjoy!!

BTW, I bought Admiral Dave's Chapuis 30R which shot "width of muzzle" for him with factory 180 gr. ammo. He kept the Leopold 1.75-6x32 scope (with which it was regulated) weighing 10.9 oz. and I added a Minox 1.5-8x32 scope weighing 13.1 oz.. Suddenly it shot 5" apart (not crossing) at 100 yards. Hand loaded 165 gr. bullets on top of 67 gr. RL22 (thanks CCMdoc) and life is good again. Little things can make a big difference in a DR.

I hadn't thought about a scope having an impact on how the gun shoots a given load, I simply looked on it as an aid to shooting better as I worked up loads. This definitely throws another wrinkle into the equation. Thanks for the input.

I added a scope to my .450-400 K, and it still regulated exactly to test target; the one rule in DRs is that there aren't any rules. They are all unique.

I added a scope to my Chapuis 9.3x74R and it completely sent the regulation off the chart. Without the scope, Barnes X 286gr shot exactly to regulation, with the scope they crossed off the target at 50 yards. It took me 14 different load combinations of bullet/powder/filler to finally get it shooting correctly with the scope attached. There is a long thread about my ordeal somewhere here on AR but when I read your OP, the scope issue was the FIRST thing that came to mind.

Double rifles have a mind of their own, they are so unpredictable. My Chapuis 9.3x74R Shot well with the scope or with out it. In mater of fact mounting the scope did not change the point of impact or the regulation much at all, go figure.


Best regards

Malek
Good Hunting/Shooting and God's best.

It seems to me that there is some confusion here on "Regulation" and sighting in a rifle and finding workable loads..I see these terms misused quit a bit on these blogs.

Regulation is the process of heating, wedging, and wrapping the barrels with wire to a point where a particular bullet will land close together without cross over at a certain distance. Once accomplished all is soldered together, the barrels blued and the gun is completed..

Every double is done in this matter and is only for a certain powder load, bullet weight, and brand of bullet..

Doubles unlike bolt guns etc. are only intended for one combination load with a soft and solid that differ with about a grain or two of a specific powder..

Not to say that one cannot play with a double with a combo of loads and perhaps get lucky, only that is isn't particularly needed. I only shoot one load in my doubles and that is the load it was regulated and sighted in to shoot.

Just a clarification of the difference of regulation and sight in testing etc.

I am with you Ray. I have always called it loading to regulation. You are trying to duplicate the load that was used at the factory.
Bill

Yes, I pointed this out way up in this thread. The OP is not "regulating" anything. He needs to make it shoot as it was regulated to do, at the factory.

Picking fly shit out of pepper! I think we all know what the OP meant.

Speaking as the OP, yes, that's what I meant, trying to get the gun to shoot as I understood it was regulated. Sorry to all if I garbled the terminology, glad that some understood and cut me a little slack.
As an update, and a thanks to those helpful souls who brought to my attention the thought that the scope may be affecting the results, indeed it is! Completely different results with iron sights, right barrel spot on the bull at 50 yards (many times over), left barrel now very high left, repeatedly. These results obtained using the significantly reduced loads(vs. published regulation loads) that I worked down to in an effort to eliminate crossing with the scope on. So it looks like:
A) make a choice, scope or iron, and work it out, or B) work out 2 loads, one for scope, one for iron sights, but it's pretty clear now that it won't be one load for both.
Onward! Another project. Nevertheless, I'm still pleased with how the gun shoots, can put 2 shots in the same hole at 50 yards with each barrel, scope or iron sights, just need to get BOTH barrels to shoot to the same POA at 50 and 100 yards.

Nobodys picking and no need to cut slack, just a post to those who are confused on the issue, I see no wrong in that..I see this misused over and over again and thought it should be clarified. If I were doing same and was unclear on a subject I would be greatful for clarification..Isn't that why were all here?

Ray, no offense taken, or intended. I appreciate all of the advice given, and the education provided by AR members. Yes, that is, or should be, why we are all here.
Best regards.