Yep, that's right. Folks this is a mid-term project, contingent on that scumbag Hein coughing up the judgment I won against him. I know what I can't afford. I'm partial to the 450#2 & the 450 Ne 4", but not limited to those. I don't want a 450/400 or anything bigger than a 470. It'll be my "retirement gift" to myself. Are Merkels that bad for example? Anyhow, maybe we can have some fun with this project and maybe nothing will come of it, but who knows! Thanks in advance to all who wish to contribute. jorge

Searcy, Blaser, Blaser, Chapuis, Chapuis.

Jorge,
You will find that opinions on doubles vary on the people who offer them. I think the best way for you to find what works for you is to get out and find several...they all are different. Make some phone calls to some of the larger dealers and take a road trip to visit them. Take your time and you will make the correct decision.

Don't overlook Heym.

Jorge,

Where can we read what happened to you with
Hein - www.rifleactions.com ? Mine, in a .45 caliber,
was a little slow getting finished, but that was it.
Now another member here owns it since I had caught
the "Double Bug" and sold it to generate funds to
buy my Osborne rifle.

The .45 caliber doubles and those larger than that
being built in Germany, Austria, France, etc. now are,
in some peoples opinions, being built on actions that
don't weigh enough to make the rifle have 50% of it's
overall weight within the center 1/3 of it's overall
length, which is the "pattern" that the vintage rifles of
U.K. makers follow. It's an issue of how the rifle moves
when in your hands and are just about to fire at your
animal. 450/400's are great for sport hunters. Maybe
not the best choice for a PRO, whose job is to keep the
party uninjured, but that's not me, nor you, as far as I
know. And you can shoot it all day and enjoy it!

quote:

The .45 caliber doubles and those larger than that
being built in Germany, Austria, France, etc. now are,
in some peoples opinions, being built on actions that
don't weigh enough to make the rifle have 50% of it's
overall weight within the center 1/3 of it's overall
length, which is the "pattern" that the vintage rifles of
U.K. makers follow.

Some people?

Jorge,

Sounds like you have your heart set on a 470. The 450's are great, but finding one is another story.

Merkels are not bad at all. And the price is hard to beat for a double.

My preference for a modern day double would be the Heym. A great quality feel to the rifle, great construction, superb balance, great shooting, plus is comes with features like intercepting sears that other makers either don't offer or have as expensive options.

LOP is very important with a double. Whichever make and caliber you choose, it has to fit you just right.

I have owned Merkel,Chapuis,Otto Geyger,Heym,Cogswell & Harrison, Valmet and Winchester doubles in various calibers including 470 and for me personally the Merkel 470 I had was as good as any of the others. I think I liked the Heym and Chapuis best from the 'FEEL' aspect but didn't have any trouble taking an Elephant with the Merkel. It was more accurate than I can shoot and was quite comfortable to shoot. I for one liked the square notch/patridge sight combination. I did remove the steel weight from the buttstock and liked the feel better but I prefer a slightly muzzle heavy feel. Again personal opinion and I think that's what you will find with everyones comments. Best of luck to you in your quest. Incidentally I currently have an 8x57R Merkel 141 and I bought it by choice new and a Chapuis would have been about the same as what I paid for it so that should tell you how I feeel about Merkel quality. As far as caliber goes you will also find as many different OPINIONS as you do respondents. If I were to buy a larger caliber double again it would probably be a 9.3x74R. Easy to get inexpensive brass,good bullets and easy to load for. I would never own another really heavy hitter. Again purely personal opinion.

Well, the practical side of me says to go for a Searcy Classic in 450 3 1/4 since you can get it cut to fit you and Hornaday will be making the ammo for it. The dreamer in me says hold out for an old Brit in the chambering you want.

Jorge, as most here have already said, it all boils down to your personal likes, in the final analysis! IMO,however, you will find the NEW off the shelf rifle to be very worth the cost, new or used! I have owned just about every name in the double rifle game, and I find the quest for a 80 to 90% Britt double rifle today is, a REAL search, that often falls short of expectations. Doubles have gotten so expensive, the really nice UKs are being held as collector items, and not taken to Africa much these days. The regulations on travel with firearms today is getting risky for travelers.

The new rifles are easy to replace if lost or damaged, but the OLD rifle is not. the double rifle being what it is, each is an individual, and even if the money valuse is recieved, that particualr rifle cannot be replaced. With the new ones they are all the same within their grade level.

I have some fine doubles, but my "go to" pair today has become a pair of Merkel doubles. They are a 140E 9.3X74R, and a Safari 140-2 470NE. These rifle shoot as well as any double I've ever owned, and are as solid as a Sherman tank. The price is right, and the ballance is fine. These rifles all come with a plastic but plate, so with the addtion of a recoil pad, the pull can be adjusted for the new owner. The others in the same price range are the Chapuis, the Krieghoff, and the Blaser. IMO, the merkel it the best of them all for proper weight, and solid construction, the others either being too light, or saddled with some cocking systems I belive to be a hazard in the Blaser, but is acceptable in the Krieghoff.

For may reasons it has allways been my advice to a guy who is about to buy his first double rifle, to buy new, and not buy too large a chambering. If he finds he is simply not suited to the rigors of careing for, and feeding a double rifle the rifle will not be hard to sell, especially if he bought used! My 470NE Merkel is as accurate, and is all the power one needs, and was bought at a bargain, from a member of AR, simply because after takeing a couple of elephants, and a few budffalo with it, decided he was a bolt rifle man. The rifle was brand new for all practical purposes, and is in new sahpe today after almost five yeras of hunting without one problem. The same goes goes the little 9.3 Merkel, after ten yrs!

If you want to go a little higher in price then I reccomend the Heym for an off the shelf rifle, or a made to order B. Searcy classic.

If you want an old Britt, then get someone like 400Nitro Express ( mark) to meat you to help you pick a winner, instead of a bag lady in a new dress!

In any event, good luck, and welcome to the wacky world of double rifles! Like Africa, you will likely be addicted, once you take a double into the field with the "BITE-BACKS"!

Thanks for the great responses gents. Mac, your way of thinking (and OZ Hunter's) are more like I was thinking, i.e. a Merkel. I have an FFL and Business license, so I can probably get one wholesale. Like I said from the onset, this is all predicated on the litigation pending in order to free up funds. Thanks again folks! jorge

Jorge:
If you can figure a way to swing it, look at a Heym PH in 450 3 1/4. Hornaday ammo and components just around the corner. Once upon a time I had quite a few double rifles and nothing felt as lively in my hands as the 450 3 1/4. Slim and quick as a 450/400 with a boost in horsepower. I would also look at the Demas guns offered by Kebco here on AR. They seem to be a very good value for the money. Good luck and have fun!

Jorge,

Since your anticipated payday is October,if you can swing it it might not be a bad idea to try to make it to the DSC in January. In addition to the fine rifles on display, there are a few of us here locally with Merkels, Heyms and Chapuis, to name a few, that you could arrange to shoot. That would give you a good feel for how they handled = shoot first, and ask questions later!

I've been in the long term market for a double as well and of the ones I have handled I really like the Merkel. I do not really like the big forend of the Chapuis. I like the Krieghoff too but the Merkel just seems to feel right to me. The only thing I thought odd was that the brand new guns had scars on the screws from turning them in, other wise it will likely be top choice.

I'll be in Dallas and hopefully I'll be in a position to make a decision by then. jorge

G'Day Jorge
I have own a few doubles from old British guns to the Merkel that ozhunter purchased from me and now is owned by a Zin PH.BOTH OF US REGRET SELLING IT.For me the only reason I parted with it is because after shooting shotguns for so many years I just couldn't get my head around extractors I wanted ejectors. I know others don't agree but thats a personnel thing.For a gun that doesn't cost an arm and a leg and performs fantastic.looks good for what you pay for you really need to look at a Merkel. I have been getting organised to buy another in 470NE right now with ejectors and a bit more engraving(look at my forum about merkel engraving on this page).
Once you have owned a double there is no going back

Jorge,
I just went through the same process and decided that the Merkel was the best buy. No controversial locking system, built like a bank vault, and I liked the feel. I found an internet seller outside of Birmingham, AL that sold me a NIB Merkel base model 470 NE with ejectors for under $10K delivered.

I believe Merkels can now be had with ejectors. I was told it was about a $700 premium. A Merkel 470 with ejectors would be a very serviceable option and easier on the budget.

Jorge, I have never fired a double rifle so of course I feel free to offer advice. There was a fellow out here at the ranch last year that had a 470 Heym PH with him. I didn't shoot it because of the plate and screws in my neck but man that was one cool, well balanced rifle. It locked up tight and seemed to be very pointable. If I was looking for a double rifle, Heym would be near the top.

Josh A.

Last year at SCI I stopped buy the Merkel booth to look them over. They had 3 470's and a 500 there. I picked up each and to my surprise each had a different balance point and feel even betwen the 470's. Two were very muzzle heavy. To me balance is of supreme importance in a stopping rifle and I would want to handle a Merkle before I shelled out the $$. My PH in Zim also had a Merkle and it was reasonably well balanced. I also don't like the square front post sight but NECG can solve that problem.

465H&H

Merkels are all over the map when it comes to first impressions. They don't consistently weight them properly, for sure, and the wood can be crap or great. Now lots of plastic grips caps etc are on them. Call me silly but for 10 grand, even if it is entry level, I don't want plastic. These can be replaced tho. The 500 may be the best way to go. They always balance, you can add a wee bit of weight, so find one with good wood and you're set.

Hendershot's in Hancock, Maryland has a mint used Merkel 470 for $9000 that I was told could be bought for $8500. Check out their web site under used rifles.

Verney-Carron Demas, this example is not mine, but I have seen this gun and it looks much better than the pictures, has several upgrades, and gives you another option.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=105812023

Dang, I'll be passing through Hancock in Sept on the way to our place in PA....jorge

Jorge: If you get a chance to stop in Hancock, talk to Lance Hendershot. Ask him about Heym as well. They have orders in the works for a couple Heym doubles. First class guy to do business with.

Jorge, In the past I was at Van's in Jackson and noticed he carried Merkel. He said if I was interested he could get it set up where I could go to the importer in Alabama and hand pick my rifle of choice. Something you may want to consider?? Good Luck!

Merkel USA
7661 Commerce Lane
Trussville, AL 35173
(205) 655-8299

jorge -- I you decide to go big, I've got a .500 Merkel just gathering dust........

quote:

talk to Lance Hendershot. Ask him about Heym as well. They have orders in the works for a couple Heym doubles. First class guy to do business with.

I'll second the recommendation for Lance. I bought three rifles off of him in the past - a straight A shooter all the way.

quote:

Originally posted by Kebco:
Verney-Carron Demas, this example is not mine, but I have seen this gun and it looks much better than the pictures, has several upgrades, and gives you another option.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=105812023

Ken-I already told Jorge in a PM to buy it.

Hell, somebody, just buy it! Trust us-Ken imports 'em and some of us buy 'em, those who don't just are pissin' in the wind cuz they're just gonna cost more. I don't know the seller, Larry, from Adam, just that he's a client of Ken's and a good guy-never dealt with him. But...he also has pimped out 450/400 too at a more than fair price. Merkel's OK, I may get one, but get a really nice gun first.

Hey, Jorge....we met in Dallas and chatted a bit. I have owned (or own) a Merkel, Heym (older model) and a Demas/VC and have a friend's Krieghoff in my safe. You can't go wrong with any of them...depending upon your preference. I too have bought 2 rifles from Lance (not doubles) and he is a GREAT gent. I have handled the new Heym PH in Dallas and it is a very fine gun. I have to say that my new Demas is first rate all the way and for the $$ is an excellent buy. Got mine from Ken (Kebco) and he is also a first rate guy to deal with.
Soooo....go fondle all that you can and make your choice...any one that you choose will be the best for you.....I wish you the best....chosing a double is GREAT fun.....but shooting them is better!

Gary
DRSS
NRA Lifer
SCI
DSC