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I've always heard that the .450 NE set the standard of a 500-grain,.458 bullet moving at 2,150 fps as the minimum "stopping" caliber for African dangerous game. So why is it that almost all factory loaded .450 NE ammo is with 480-grain bullets moving at 2,150 fps? Were the orginal NEs .480 or 500 grains? Is it safe to load 500-grain bullets in the .450 NE and fire them in classic Old English doubles at 2,150? Do those 20 extra grains of lead make a big diffenece in regulation? Inquiring minds want to know! (Even if I never come close to being able to actually buy one.) | ||
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Not sure how to answer all points of your question(s). But the little I do know about the 450 doubles tells me your rifle will tell you the velocity it likes by how well the bullets regulate. What your rifle likes best might be more or less than what seems ideal to you. Others with more experience than me will hopefully chime in and add more. My biggest fear is when I die my wife will sell my guns for what I told her they cost. | |||
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The original bullet weight for the 450 3 1/4", the 500/450 Holland and Holland, and the 450 No2, was 480 grains. Most old ammo catalogues show the 450 3 1/4" and the 500/450 at 2125fps, and the 450 No2 at 2175fps. All in 28" barrels. Some do show 2150fps. My 450 No2 shoots 480 Woodleigh Softs and Solids, Hornady old style 500gr Softs and Solids, and 500gr Swift A Frames, to the same point of impact at 100 yards... With the 450gr North Fork Solids and Cup Points I just add one grain of powder when using RL 15. Also my 450 No2 follows my 75% rule with 350gr Hornady RN bullets. This double shoots equally well with loads using IMR 3031, IMR 4831, and RL 15. RL 15 seems to have less pressure. In the 3 1/2" case of the No2 I MUST use filler with any OF THOSE powders... My 450 No2 does have 28" barrels, it was made in 1906. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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GAHUNTER Not so sure where "the minimum stopping caliber for African dangerous game came from" as like you find this can cut out even the 450 NE with 480gr bullets. Taylor in his famous book stated that from observation and his vast experience, a cartridge needed to have 50 or more of his KO values to be regarded as suitable for stopping dangerous game charges. The 450/400 NE was at this minimum level of 50 Taylor KOs with all the other 40cals and larger qualifying. Of course there are different dangerous game with Taylor saying the 416 Rigby piled up charging lion like no other whereas some of the larger calibres were more suitable for doing the same on elephant. Horses for courses but all 40cal and above capable stoppers if the shooter is up to it. | |||
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Like NE 450 No 2 said, that is the way the 450 NE started out with a 480 gr. bullet. Why? Who knows. The 450 NE was the first of the big NE cartridges, so they were plowing virgin ground. I would love to know whether they picked that bullet weight out of the blue or from field testing in Africa. There is no such thing as a "stopper" guaranteed to stop any animal. The 450 NE did such a better job of killing elephant than any of the old black powder guns that I suspect that the 450 NE was also the originator of the term "stopper." Of course the bigger the gun the more likely you will stop any animal. Maybe that is why some guy may use a .577 NE instead of a .222 Rem. for elephant! The idea of a stopper also depends upon what animal you are trying to stop. ------------------------------- Will / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor, GOA, NAGR _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped. “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ If anything be of note, let it be he was once an elephant hunter, hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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I think "stopper" is a term thrown around quite a bit by someone that used a 450 NE and got the piss scared out of them and moved on to something a lot bigger.  ------------------------------- Will / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor, GOA, NAGR _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped. “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ If anything be of note, let it be he was once an elephant hunter, hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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The 450-3.25 was loaded with the "traditional" British heavy 45 caliber bullet weight of 480 grains. Same bullet weight as the 577-450. The American "traditional" bullet weight for 45 caliber was 500 (45-70). They just stuck with what they knew, just like we did (458 Win Mag). In the case of the 458 Win, maybe we should have went with British tradition. | |||
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Excellent point and I stand corrected. ------------------------------- Will / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor, GOA, NAGR _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped. “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ If anything be of note, let it be he was once an elephant hunter, hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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Will, now you're talking! | |||
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GAHUNTER, the 450 NE was also originally loaded with 365 and 420-grain bullets. .......Ray | |||
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Are you sure that wasn't the BP cartridge ? . | |||
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I am positive. The loads were by Westley Richards copper capped, and Velopex, and they were also available for the 500/450 x 3-1/4, both N.E.'s. In addition, the 470 -- which as you know was never a BP cartridge -- had Velopex loads w/ 365-grain bullets by Velopex (Holland) and "Spl Capped," both loaded with Cordite. Source: "British Sporting Rifle Cartridges," by Bill Fleming. | |||
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Ray, welcome to AR. Thanks for the input-you seem well read and informed. New blood is good. Tom ...I say that hunters go into Paradise when they die, and live in this world more joyfully than any other men. -Edward, duke of York ". . . when a man has shot an elephant his life is full." ~John Alfred Jordan "The budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be refilled, public debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be tempered and controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed lest Rome become bankrupt. People must again learn to work, instead of living on public assistance." Cicero - 55 BC "The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities." - Ayn Rand Cogito ergo venor- KPete “It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker, that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own self-interest. We address ourselves, not to their humanity but to their self-love, and never talk to them of our own necessities but of their advantages.” ― Adam Smith - “Wealth of Nations” | |||
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Tom, Thanks. I've been around db rifles since the early 1970s, and professionally as a writer/editor from about 1975, when I bought my Churchill 470. It fell to me to rewrite the entire chapter on English cartridges in the 8th Edition of Cartridges of the World, so I have some good reference material. | |||
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I have a 1903 Rigby single shot in 450NE. The barrel reads, "SPECIAL .450 BORE BIG GAME RIFLE" and "FOR SPECIAL CORDITE CARTRIDGES BULLET 480GRS". . | |||
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+ 1 Agree Thanks . | |||
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