Picked up my new Kodiak I had ordered and sent to my dealer.
Spent yesterday cleaning all of the factory oil off and re-oiling, shining up, and checking for flaws.
Fit and finish are "ok". Not excellent, but just "ok". In other words, I do not feel that I was cheated.
Loaded up some 350 hornady's and now today, will be heading to the south pasture for some fun.
I had thought of keeping this a .45-70, but this all depends on if it is grouping well, and whether or not I feel a rechamber will hurt, or help. I'll not really know until I have some groups with it to study.
The gun is tight, and sturdy, and locks up really well. If there will be a rechamber in the works, I feel it would take any of the .450 nitro's and the .45-120 which could duplicate the .450 3 1/4" nitro.
However, it is at this point not the chamber pressure that is of concern.
It is the integrity of the gun itself with 500grn. bullets and 2150fps---the wood to metal fit and the possibility of cracking, etc.
It is well fit, so, I'm not too worried at this point if a rechamber should happen in the next month.
But, before taking any drastic step, I'll be seeing how well it's regulated today.
If it's not too good with any combination I try, then I may deem it necessary to take a gamble and punch her out to a nitro, or possibly, at least, the .45-120 with similar loads.
All in all, this is a hefty gun.
Weighs more than my Lott, so any nitro in it would be a cakewalk.
Now to shootin'. I'll be back later today with the results.

Just wanted to add: I got this one from Dixie Gun Works. They were very professional and nice on the phone and sent it out right away, and I have no complaints with them. They are excellent.

Pics?....where'd you get it at?....

I'd leave it a .45/70. I know a number of guys who have rechambered to one of the .450s and got away with it, but that was back when these were $2000 guns. The regulation is always a crap shoot. Last I heard, these were still brazed rather than soldered, so re-regulation is difficult.
------------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Before you go to the risk and expence of rechambering it, get an ACCURATE (meaning throw that friggin dial caliper in the trash) slug of the barrels. I was sent some slugs of one and they are very tight (.4556"). There isn't a single solid on the market that I would shoot down a barrel that small; and a lot of soft points, also.

Barrels made with a worn out button?

Got back just now---
with the 350 hornady's at medium power marlin level loads:
50yds.---left barrel group--1" high and 2" to the right.
right barrel group--1" high and 4" to the right.
4 shots from each barrel

Shooting to the right too much. If I could bring it to the left a bit, I'd call it good and leave it.
This may just be a matter of the sights--I don't think Pedersoli really puts much time in this, besides a cheap laser bore-sighting type thing. And, to top it off, my sight base has a set screw for adjustment, which tells me, that it was meant to be used if needed, or else they would not need it if they would spend the extra time on these things. But after all, it is an "economy" double.

I do think I will leave it a .45-70, for pigs and deer.
The only way, at this point, that I'd rechamber, is if it held absolutely no promise of grouping reasonably well in .45-70.
But, I think it's on it's way now.
A few more days with it should tell.

One thing I almost forgot to mention, and is bothering me at this point--and the reason I was only able to shoot 8 rounds: I'm having to use soft primers--fed., cci, whatever, as long as they are NOT the brass looking Winchester primers, because the mainsprings on this gun do not have the strength to set them off---which was pretty damn irritating, to say the least, especially since I was going for groups today, and getting continuous "clicks", was un-nerving.
So basically, I've got to use soft primers.
Thats one bad thing about this rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by yellowhammer:
Pics?....where'd you get it at?....

I'm planning on some pics, but I've got to get my digital out and sign up for photo hosting.
Should'nt be too long.
Dixie Gun Works, as mentioned above.

CCIs are a very hard primer. Federals are about the softest.

500, if you look, the SAAMI spec for the 45-70 is .456. Euro guns follow it pretty close. US manufacturers don't pay much attention to it, with most being between .457 and .458.

quote:

Originally posted by NFMike:
Before you go to the risk and expence of rechambering it, get an ACCURATE (meaning throw that friggin dial caliper in the trash) slug of the barrels. I was sent some slugs of one and they are very tight (.4556"). There isn't a single solid on the market that I would shoot down a barrel that small; and a lot of soft points, also.

I've noticed this last night---I stuck a 500grn. hornady nose first into the muzzles for a quick look. The bullet went farther into the left barrel, which tells me the right barrel is tighter. Of course this is not a very effective way of knowing, but seeing this, I know now that I'm going to slug it, and get some measurements.

quote:

Originally posted by NFMike:
CCIs are a very hard primer. Federals are about the softest.

500, if you look, the SAAMI spec for the 45-70 is .456. Euro guns follow it pretty close. US manufacturers don't pay much attention to it, with most being between .457 and .458.

Thanks for the info on primers. I've never had to deal with this issue before, so I did not know.

quote:

And, to top it off, my sight base has a set screw for adjustment, which tells me, that it was meant to be used if needed, or else they would not need it if they would spend the extra time on these things. But after all, it is an "economy" double.

Double rifles that you could trade for good sized houses also have set screws. Just loosen then drift. When you have found your drift, tighten and then engrave a witness mark so you can line it back up if required.

BTW, it is not uncommon to need to drift a rear sight. Different shooter will find the rifle shoots to different POI from time to time. I've also found that different powders can impact POI right or left.

You might find that just a bit more velocity will bring the barrels closer together, and POI a bit lower too.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by NFMike:


500, if you look, the SAAMI spec for the 45-70 is .456. Euro guns follow it pretty close. US manufacturers don't pay much attention to it, with most being between .457 and .458.

That is interesting. In my state of ignorant bliss I always considered it a rimmed 458 x 2".

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:


BTW, it is not uncommon to need to drift a rear sight. Different shooter will find the rifle shoots to different POI from time to time. I've also found that different powders can impact POI right or left.



You might find that just a bit more velocity will bring the barrels closer together, and POI a bit lower too.

JPK

I might be able to add about 50fps, but thats it, without hitting Ruger #1 loads which would "not" be good.
I'm going to drift the sight base over a little tonight and head out again in the morning with new loads adding 25-50 fps with softer primers.

By the way, it may be of interest to some:
My target was mounted on a bail of hay 6 feet in length by six feet tall. Very tightly rolled packed hay from John Deere bailer.
Oddly enough, much like the effect of a bullet stopping on the offside under the skin of an animal, the 350 Hornady RN's stopped at the other end of the bail, and after sticking my fingers in it they simply fell out into my hands. They had traversed 6 ft. of tightly packed hay. Then stopped, almost as if knowing there was no more medium to go through.
The jackets had lost the petals. However the lead core was unharmed and never mushroomed.
The petals broke at the top cannelure.
These new Hornady RN's have two cannelures now.
The bases are undamaged, and I might be able to get an accurate bore measurement with them, however, I have no idea which bullet came out of which barrel.

What load and bullet weight does Pedersoli claim it is regulated to?

I'm not sure myself. I've heard anywhere from 300 to the 405's.
This info is not included in the literature anywhere with the gun, and I might email them soon about this issue.
However, for me, if I can get the 350's running good through it, thats the bullet I'd rather use. They seem to be doing well, showing separate barrel groups un-crossing 2" apart, only needing some windage adjustments to move them over.

For all we know, the only thing they might be doing at the factory is laser bore-sighting.

As for loads, they will handle anything the Marlin will. Just keep everything under 40K pressure, as a general rule.

Your loads are shooting high and apart,You need to add fps,add 3 grs of powder, untill barrels shoot together.
JD

I'm at "top-end" right now and may be able to load only 2 more grains.
I'll do that and test tomorrow.

Last I heard they were regulated for 300 grain factory loads. My brother had one and it shot very well with several different loads, including Cor-Bon and Garretts.

It liked the 350gr Hornady over 53gr of IMR 3031.

What are your loads? The top load in one manual is a pipsqueak load in another. More to the point, what is your powder and velocity?

Hodgdon website database:
Using IMR-4198
Max load is 50 grs.
I was using 48grs.
I can only increase to 50.
Thats still going to be around 37K pressure.
Even though 40K is the limit, I like to stay as far away as possible. In fact, I'd like it to be a lot lower, but if it regulates at this, then I'll have to accept it.
I ran out of IMR 3031.
I do have 4320, but that won't help much I don't think.
At the same time, I hope I can work out this primer issue, without having to tweak something on the gun itself. The firing pin springs may be a bit strong or something, I don't know.
The pins protrude fully out of the face when held down, so they are not blocked by anything that I see. I've checked the pins and they are still uniform---in other words they were not too "soft", and were hardened well.

As to loading, I've got many books, but at at the same time, many of those do not list pressure, and I like to have a pressure reference with the load. I don't know if the Hodgdon website data is low or high, but then again, the 50gn load is at about 37K pressure.
Bout' 17 long tons I guess, about the same as a .450 3 1/4" nitro.
In fact, I think the .450 I had flattened these same primers more-so than this .45-70 is doing.
When I had it, it always seemed to run at scary high pressure no matter what powder one used, either rl-15 or 4831. In fact, even though the pressure is held farther down the barrel with 4831, it always seemed to be the worst of the bunch.
I'd prefer to run at 32K in this hammer gun, but unless I ream it to a .45-90, that aint gonna happen.
If Pedersoli would chamber these in .45-90 or .45-100, it would take away a lot of pressure issues, which with an old design hammer gun are quite important in my mind, even though it is modern steel. But then again, if they did that, some idiot would hot-rod them too.

I emailed Pedersoli on my Kodiak and they said it was regulated for Winchester 300 grain at 50 meters, their target showed 6 oclock 2 inches low for both barrels. I don't know if they are still using the same ammo as mine was made in 1999.

If you are not adverse to trying different powders, may I suggest VV N-133. With the 350s, it will yield either another 100fps over the 4198, 322, etc at the same pressure or 6K to 7K less pressure at the same velocity. RE7 and AA2230 will also yield better velocities for a given pressure or more velocity if that is what you wish.

quote:

Originally posted by walksfar:
As for loads, they will handle anything the Marlin will. Just keep everything under 40K pressure, as a general rule.

I've heard this claim before, and it occurs to me that it doesn't necessarily follow. I'd ask Pedersoli if these guns are standard proof or if a special proof is specified. Pedersoli may well be specifying a stronger than standard proof, but I'd want to get that directly from Pedersoli, and not someone else.

These guns are made in Italy, which is a CIP member. CIP proof standards are rigid, and they're law there, not merely industry standard. CIP MAP for the .45/70 is 2200 BAR, or 31,908 PSI. That means that, by law, the CIP proof cartridges produce a mean pressure of 2750 BAR, or 39,885 PSI. Unless these rifles are submitted for a special proof, 40,000 PSI loads are right at proof pressure. Not at all where I would want to be in a drop-down barrel actioned gun.

What do the proof marks on your gun say? Most CIP countries now mark the proof pressure in BAR, but I don't know for sure about Italy. British rifles currently proved for .45/70 are marked 2750 BAR.
----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

quote:

Originally posted by 400 Nitro Express:

quote:

Originally posted by walksfar:
As for loads, they will handle anything the Marlin will. Just keep everything under 40K pressure, as a general rule.

I've heard this claim before, and it occurs to me that it doesn't necessarily follow. I'd ask Pedersoli if these guns are standard proof or if a special proof is specified. Pedersoli may well be specifying a stronger than standard proof, but I'd want to get that directly from Pedersoli, and not someone else.

These guns are made in Italy, which is a CIP member. CIP proof standards are rigid, and they're law there, not merely industry standard. CIP MAP for the .45/70 is 2200 BAR, or 31,908 PSI. That means that, by law, the CIP proof cartridges produce a mean pressure of 2750 BAR, or 39,885 PSI. Unless these rifles are submitted for a special proof, 40,000 PSI loads are right at proof pressure. Not at all where I would want to be in a drop-down barrel actioned gun.

What do the proof marks on your gun say? Most CIP countries now mark the proof pressure in BAR, but I don't know for sure about Italy. British rifles currently proved for .45/70 are marked 2750 BAR.
----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

One more reason to punch it out to .45-100 or so, and take my chances with regulation.
As is, after some thought, I'm shoving some of the 50gr. loads to the side and re-trying my 48 gr. loads today, which are at 32K.
I'm just too much of a cautious fellow to push it. If these don't work well again, then I'll
either move down to 300 gr. bullets, or shoot it as blackpowder eqv.(boring), or take the plunge and run the reamer down the tubes(couple hours work). The latter is becoming more appealing to me every time I think of it. Not a drastic re-chambering, but something along the lines of the .45-90 or .45-100, to lengthen by .30 at least, and run the same charges through them, but at less pressure. A slight lengthening like this should not effect regulation "that" much if at all, if run with the same charges as the .45-70 marlin.

As a note:
I think I might have found the firing pin and primer problem. The pin springs were very strong, more-so than needed. I replaced them last night with new springs, and they are working better. Will try them today.
Actually, my springs are better quality, and made for this and I think they will be better.
The springs that were in the gun, well, did not look too good.

When my brother had his Kodiak he contacted Pederosoli and they advised him that the double was safe with any load that was safe in the new Marlin Lever.

Try some 300gr factory loads in your gun. For really big pigs or black bear use the 300gr Nosler Partition factory load.

However my brothers Kodiak shot well with all loads we tried 300 to 405gr bullets, factory and handload.

Get some IMR 3031, that load of 53gr with a 350 Hornady RN has shot very well in several 45/70's including Marlin levers and a Ruger No1.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
When my brother had his Kodiak he contacted Pederosoli and they advised him that the double was safe with any load that was safe in the new Marlin Lever.

That doesn't exactly answer the question.
-----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

heeeeee....heeeee.
Whether the question is answered or not....
I've got it goin' 90 miles an hour on the dot.

Went back with the 350's and 48grs. as I originally wanted to shoot, at 32K pressure or so----here is the deal:
Changed my sight picture--you have to draw a "very" fine bead....new springs work very well....new better softer primers...both barrels now fire when I want them to(good thing, to say the least)...AND she's now putting both barrels side by side within 1 1/2" at 50yds right on the big black dot.
I have to believe that the shooting yesterday was slightly flawed due to the un-nerving experience of having the hammers fall without detination. Very freaky thing to happen when trying to get good groups.
I'm leaving her alone now.
This is good enough for me.
No rechamber.
It's all turned out very well. However, this gun is still going to be a short range number, 100yds. at best for the comfort zone.
AND: I'm glad I was able to post my findings on how I had to tweak this gun and the firing pin springs and the primer information, in case someone who may have the same problem, can do a search for this thread.
Actually, I thought I'd have to work with it a few more days, but it all came together rather quickly today.
Thank's for all of the info from everyone.
She is now a keeper.
---walksfar---

I like the decision to keep the load and change the springs. It sounds like you have arrived as a DRSS shooter in good standing. A shooter of experience. Did you receive a regulation target at all? Packy

Thank's Packy!
No, they did not send a target with it, but from what I hear, it's possible to email them and they will send a photo of it.
I'm going to try that soon, and see what they send me.

Hi,
I just get a .58 Muzzleloading Kodiak.
As I would like to get some information about its regulation I have try to contact Pedersoli by Email (on their site) but both emails get back.
Do they have another email adress?
Thanks
Martin

Try gloria@davidepedersoli.com

Thanks Rolland

Martin