Francotte Double Rifle in .470

01 October 2007, 23:57

577NitroExpress

Ok, Gents... Need people's thoughts, ideas, opinions about Francotte Double Rifles.

Any information would be appreciated.

As I'm sure most of you already know, The Cabela's store in Missouri has a Francotte DR in .470 for sale. I contacted the gunroom and spoke with "Steve."

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/content/community/gun...sp?hierarchyId=10473

First question I had was "how are the barrels." He said that the barrels were beautiful, no pitting, no Cordite burn, no frosting, and the rifling was crisp and square the entire length of the barrels.

Hearing that, I asked him if the gun was on-face and he said that the gun was very tight.

Well, he is transfering the rifle to the Hamburg, PA cabela's today and I plan on going up to check it out on Friday morning with Doc52. (It's on hold for me so you guys can't beat me to it.)

I have spoken to two other AR posters about this gun and they have given me some good information about the gun itself and about the Francotte rifles from the 1920s (when this gun was made).

I would welcome any information you guys have about this rifle, this model of rifle, Francotte itself and anything else.

Also, I curious if anyone out there has an opinion if this gun looks like it has a removable hinge pin. 400 Nitroexpress thinks it might from viewing the photo of the left side of the gun. Can anyone offer any more thoughts about that?

Thanks, guys!

02 October 2007, 00:36

Rolland

That is a beautiful rifle I would purchase it myself but I am $16990 short of the purchase price.

02 October 2007, 01:15

Showbart

Looks good. How long's it been for sale? Can you establish a price on it to confirm that the asking price is in the hunt?

Have it transfered to your local dealer in VA once you've looked it over at the Hamburg store so you'll save sales tax. That and Cabela's has a very lenient return policy. Kinda hard to go wrong.

02 October 2007, 01:39

JudgeG

A PH had a .450 Nitro Express Francotte double in Burkina Faso when I was there. I have never had a rifle in my hands that came to shoulder so readily or pointed where I looked so effortlessly.

I may be wrong, but I believe that Francotte is one of the best non-English makers?

02 October 2007, 01:55

mouse93

some on Auguste Francotte - enjoy

this one looks pretty similar:

here is another in 470 and more not as pretty but ...

02 October 2007, 02:18

577NitroExpress

quote:
I may be wrong, but I believe that Francotte is one of the best non-English makers?

Judge:

From what I have been told by people more knowledable than myself, Francotte was Europe's (non-British) equivent of Webley and Scott. They made all of their own actions in house and made actions to sell to other houses.

This gun is from the late 1920s and I have been told that the guns from this time are very good quality.

It sounds like the barrels are in excellent condition, but I won't know until I check it out on Friday. (However, seeing the muzzel photos that they have posted, the rifling looks good at that area.)

Mouse, thanks for the links.

Right now the only thing that is a negative is the LOP. My other DRs have 14.5", and this one is 14" - But I think if push comes to shove I can get a larger pad installed.

I'm calling JJ tomorrow to get his take on this rifle from the photos; it goes to him if I buy it for an inspection anyway.

02 October 2007, 02:26

Jim Manion

Beautiful rifle!

Looks like it also has a flip up ivory front sight as well.

Let us know what JJ has to say.

02 October 2007, 02:38

577NitroExpress

Jim:

From the photos and the description from the cabelas folks, it looks like a good rifle. I will know on Friday for sure.

02 October 2007, 02:44

AfricanHunter

quote:
Originally posted by Rolland:
That is a beautiful rifle I would purchase it myself but I am $16990 short of the purchase price.

It's a good thing I have been gone and haven't caught up on checking the various web sites or I would have found the money! Darn nice rifle I think and Francotte made some nice firearms. Oh well, I didn't need another .470 any way.

02 October 2007, 02:54

Jim Manion

Here's a little blurb I found on Chuck Hawks:

quote:
[FN/Browning guns are not the only best guns made in Belgium, of course. FN is the industrial giant of Liege, the 500 pound gorilla of Belgian gunmaking and the only surviving major manufacturer, but there are still a few small specialty firms.

Representative of these and best known in the U.S. is Francotte. Auguste Francotte & Cie was founded in 1805 in Liege to produce military arms. Later they turned to sporting arms, and soon garnered attention as a builder of best guns in the British tradition. Francotte guns became well known in the UK and were imported into the USA by Abercrombie & Fitch.

Today all Francotte shotguns are bespoke. (Francotte also builds bespoke bolt action and double rifles, the latter with back-action sidelocks.) There are no standard models beyond generic "hunting" and "pigeon" types. Both O/U and side-by-side configurations are offered.

Actions are formed from forged chrome-nickel steel in the Francotte workshop. Actions can be either an H&H type bar action sidelock or Anson & Deely type boxlock. Action finish can be case colored, French gray, or blued. Double triggers are standard but selective and non-selective single triggers can be ordered. A manual or automatic safety is optional.

Barrels are also formed in the Francotte workshop. Francotte barrels are drawn from metal bars and are of the chopper lump type. A matted rib and automatic ejectors are standard. Barrel lengths and chokes are to customer order, and the customer may specify the exact shell and load with which the gun is to be patterned.

02 October 2007, 07:01

Idaho Sharpshooter

check the DRs at the Boise, Idaho, store.

Rich
DRSS
Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...

02 October 2007, 07:21

Jim Manion

quote:
I plan on going up to check it out on Friday morning with Doc52

Just make sure he washes his hands before he touches the rifle - you never know where they've been!

02 October 2007, 08:06

JPK

The hinge pin looks removeable, but it isn't important either way. It can be repaired today if it is not removeable.

Looks like a great rifle for the price. More important than the length of pull, which, as you note can be stretched with a long pad, or a shorter pad over a wood extension, is the drop.

Cast on or off can be remedied with a bend.

Good luck.

JPK

03 October 2007, 02:25

577NitroExpress

Here are some photos of the barrel flats and water table:

03 October 2007, 02:26

577NitroExpress

03 October 2007, 02:26

577NitroExpress

03 October 2007, 02:26

577NitroExpress

03 October 2007, 03:49

400 Nitro Express

Nice colors for the age, and looks like nice overall condition. Good weight for caliber and I like the 26" barrels. Bushed pins, hidden cross bolt, chopper lump barrels, removeable hinge pin, trap grip cap, and moon bead. Lots of features on a rifle from a good maker. If the bores are as described, I see nothing that I don't like.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

03 October 2007, 08:20

Bill Cooley

Nice looking rifle!!!
Does aneyone have aney doutes 577 will have a new gun for the next Hog hunt.

Bill

03 October 2007, 19:18

Wink

Just for the record, b.blindee is French for "balle blindÃ©e" which translates as Full Metal Jacket. I would guess that means that proofing was done with FMJ bullets.

04 October 2007, 06:05

tomo577

take a real good look at the proofing of the barrels. the mark on the water table closest to the standing breech is the Belgian nitro proof mark. i can't see it on the barrels. check it out.

04 October 2007, 07:32

jeffeosso

Hey 577, I owe you 2 bucks for the spartan not making it out

quote:
Originally posted by tomo577:
take a real good look at the proofing of the barrels. the mark on the water table closest to the standing breech is the Belgian nitro proof mark. i can't see it on the barrels. check it out.

Okay, well, okay, Tom's wrong, but I won't be an ass about calling him out on it, AGAIN...

Here's what the proofs read

** from "the standard directory of proof marks"

On the barrels, the proofs read
"crown over R" "this mark is applied to ...f) Long guns"

"f" - unknown

"*P" the inspectors mark, kept secert

"lion over P.V." "This mark is found on barrels and locks...On barrels and on the most important action parts, .. one shot of 50 per cent over pressure"

"crown over LEG" "on rifled barrels after a single proof" (see above)

on action
"crown over R" "this mark is applied to ...f) Long guns"

"*P" the inspectors mark, kept secert
"lion over P.V." "This mark is found on barrels and locks...On barrels and on the most important action parts, .. one shot of 50 per cent over pressure"

perron what looks like a mitter's stamp, or a long handled rubber stamp, is the perron, which basically means BELGIAN Proofed per the rest of the stamps

all the stuff on the barrel, on the flats, is more or less optional. the EL or LE is a temp proof, and all the stuff on the flats override it.

what an excellent find

04 October 2007, 08:34

400 Nitro Express

Jeffe is right. The perron is not the nitro proof mark. The lion rampant over "PV" is.
------------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

05 October 2007, 01:45

Rusty

Very nice rifle!

Rusty
We Band of Brothers!
DRSS, NRA & SCI Life Member
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05 October 2007, 02:28

Showbart

So where is Paul?

05 October 2007, 05:18

577NitroExpress

Got up to Philly earlier today. Leaving tomorrow AM to head to Hamburg to see the rifle. Doc52 and I are meeting Retreever at the store to take a closer look at the girl.

Will post info tomorrow afternoon.

05 October 2007, 05:40

jimatcat

hope its as nice as it looks...

05 October 2007, 05:51

BigFiveJack

To Paul Sr, Paul Jr and Mike P. - Have a great visit with one

another and may good news come out of the visit to Cabelas!

05 October 2007, 22:33

Jim Manion

Well, nothing on the news so far about 3 men running amok in a Cabelas store blasting the taxidermy work off the walls. So, things must be going well...

05 October 2007, 23:22

400 Nitro Express

I think it's on it's way to Enid...
-----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

05 October 2007, 23:24

Atkinson

For a using rifle I would prefer a Francotte over any English rifle..It is one of the best built double rifle out there today and the steel is much better as it was made later than the English guns...A great rifle.

05 October 2007, 23:28

Charles_Helm

quote:
Originally posted by 400 Nitro Express:
I think it's on it's way to Enid...

Good for them!

05 October 2007, 23:51

400 Nitro Express

quote:
Originally posted by Atkinson:
the steel is much better as it was made later than the English guns...

No, it wasn't...

Francotte was in business earlier and longer than most of the English makers, and made a lot of guns in the early days. This one was made in 1927.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

05 October 2007, 23:59

Jim Manion

I think Francotte has been in business since 1820 or so. Same as Ray...

06 October 2007, 00:09

400 Nitro Express

Francotte was established in 1805 and closed only very recently.
------------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

06 October 2007, 00:12

577NitroExpress

Well Gents, the gun will be on the way to Enid within the next few days.

Doc52 and I met Retreever this morning at the store.

First hiccup was they said the gun didn't arrive from Missouri. A few calls later it was confirmed that the gun was delivered and signed for - now they just had to locate it in the store. About an hour later it was in our hands.

I'm not an expert, but with the knowledge I have gathered from some of the finest guys I have ever met (through this forum), I put the gun through its paces.

It appears to us that it is still tight and completely on face.

The wood is all original with no re-checkering or refinishing that we can see (someone did oil up the gun a bit).

Gun fit was very good, with only LOP needing changing (add another 1/2").

The barrels look like they are in very good shape. No noticible pitting or frosting and the rifling looks square the entire length.

The gun will be off to JJ's for a full evaluation. I have 30 days to return it, but to our eyes it looks all in original condition and hasn't been shot too much.

06 October 2007, 00:51

fla3006

quote:
400 Nitro Express: Francotte was established in 1805 and closed only very recently.

Sad to read. Like so many others.

06 October 2007, 01:55

jeffeosso

quote:
Originally posted by Jim Manion:
I think Francotte has been in business since 1820 or so. Same as Ray...

06 October 2007, 05:20

BigFiveJack

Paul,

I hope you get an excellent report back from JJP.

06 October 2007, 06:22

Rusty

Congratulations, y'all! I look forward to seeing her!

I didn't know Ray was that young?