OK so for instance a Weatherby Athena or a Browning Citori, and an H&H or Searcy double, honestly what is the differance?

quote:

Originally posted by .366torque:
OK so for instance a Weatherby Athena or a Browning Citori, and an H&H or Searcy double, honestly what is the differance?

1) Work/craftmanship/knowledge
2) Laborhours
3) $$$$$$$$$$$$
4) NAME

It has been decades since my last FAILED attempt at building a SLING SHOT.

Given that, I'd have to think the typical action of a DR is built heavier/sturdier than the typical action of a double barrel shotgun.

The DR handles much higher levels of stress on all it's parts (one would think).

Twelve ga. bbls can be fitted on www.searcyent.com SEARCY 470NE class rifle actions.

The WEIGHT when so done is much more than the typical UK SxS 12 ga shotgun.

So what is the difference?

My short answer is: MORE METAL & WOOD IS USED IN BUILDING A DR PROPERLY.

quote:

Originally posted by .366torque:
OK so for instance a Weatherby Athena or a Browning Citori, and an H&H or Searcy double, honestly what is the differance?

This has to be a joke, or a sarcastic post, because I thought anyone that knows anything about firearms would know the basic answer to that question! Perhaps not!

Basicly,besides the rifleing in the barrels, the very percise regulation of the barrles, the difference is about 300 more hours of very skilled labor, that isn't needed on a shotgun! Especially not needed on a shotgun like the machine made Weatherby Athena, or browning Citori. Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with the two shotguns you list, it is that they simply are a lot easier to make than a double rifle!

Of course MacD37 is correct with the points he makes.

That Mac, he always makes good points!

Actually, my question didn't come out the way I wanted. What I was trying to ask is, if the locking mechanisms were similar, in size and strength.

quote:

Originally posted by .366torque:
Actually, my question didn't come out the way I wanted. What I was trying to ask is, if the locking mechanisms were similar, in size and strength.

If you are talking O/U double rifles, there isn't much difference in the way most are locked up. The difference is in the time a finite fitting required for a double rifle. The actions, and lock-up can be SLOPPY, by double rifle standards,for shotguns, and the regulation only has to place two 30" patterens on the same piece of 40" paper at 35 yds! I don't think anyone I know would accept two bullets on the same 40" paper at 35 yds to be a well regulated double rifle!

Companies that only build shotguns don't have to have much hardening in their actions or surfaces, so their actions are generally soft! Companies, OTOH, that make double rifles use harder actions, so they will serve both purposes! Basicly their shotguns are made on rifle actions, rather than the reverse! Still the fitting is more percise when installing rifle barrels on the action. By haveing all their action rifle capable, they only have to make one of each size, for both shotgun, and rifle!

You will find that here, most do not consider O/U double rifles to be real double rifles but a bastardized O/U shotgun make overs, and are not taken seriously as DGRs!

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

You will find that here, most do not consider O/U double rifles to be real double rifles but a bastardized O/U shotgun make overs, and are not taken seriously as DGRs!

before you get too crazy, ask Searcy how many rounds he needs to regulate his DRs. "Hardly ever used a box of 20..." was the answer I got. Usually one trip to the bench does it, two at most. Ain't been around DRs going back to the black powder days like every other poster here, but Butch did build a neighbor a 45-70 double on a Red Label I owned for a couple years, and I did own a double digit SN Krieghoff 500 3" for a time.

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
before you get too crazy, ask Searcy how many rounds he needs to regulate his DRs. "Hardly ever used a box of 20..." was the answer I got. Usually one trip to the bench does it, two at most. Rich

Rich, you are correct, Butch has a knack for this portion of double rifle makeing! That fact is evident in the accuracy in his double rifles.

However, contrary to popular believe, regulation is only one small part, though an important part, of the building a double rifle, even a working grade double!

The fitting of the barrels,then the fitting the barrel set to the action, is a very time comsuming opperation. This is done by trial and error, just like the regulation, by smokeing the action parts that mate, and hand honeing the tiny high spots till they mate together as thinly as a layer of smoke.

The fitting of the wood to the rifle,and once that is done,and the wedges and ribs are partially laid, then the regulation starts. After that the final shapeing of the wood, and installing any fittings to the wood. Then the carding and polishing of the steel, fitting, and fileing of the final sights.If there is to be any engraveing, the steel parts a given to the engraver.

Then the blacking of the barrels, and steel parts that have been fitted to the wood. and the final checkering. Now the hand rubbed wood finish. All these things are done by different people, and their skills are costly.

Then, in the case of Searcy, the cost of warranty work for life must be taken into consideration in the price as well. So you see the box of ammo taken to regulate the rifle, though not a lot, is for a 470NE about $240 per 20 rds,plus the regulator's pay, and when one considers the cost of 600NE ammo, it makes the 470NE ammo look cheap. Not to mention someone has to stand behind that monster to regulate it.

It is true many of these things must be done with a shotgun as well, but unless the shotgun is an upgrade modle, the negraveing is usually rolled on, and the checkering is machine done. the action fitting can be quite loose compaired to a double rifle, because of the very low pressures involved with shotgun shells,so can be done on machines, and the regulation is done in a jig, even on expensive shotguns.

There is huge difference between a S/S shotgun, and a S/S double rifle in the care taken in what must be done to make it right! These things apply to an entry level double rifle as well as the top of the line! The chamber pressures don't get lighter because the rifle costs less.

Hey Mac if you'd ever held a David McKay Brown Best O/U you'd stop all that DR is better and harder to make or is more precisely fit or the metal is soft junk. Regulation is different in the goal, however the center of a pattern is a point and the range is closer but the process is exactly the same. The actions, top levers, hammer and so on are the same and require the same fitting and labor those on a DR do. A shotgun will see use far rougher and many many times more shells through it than any DR will, so the quality has to be there either way. Also game guns are made to be light, where strength and quality are at a premium.

quote:

Originally posted by Planemech:
Hey Mac if you'd ever held a David McKay Brown Best O/U you'd stop all that DR is better and harder to make or is more precisely fit or the metal is soft junk. Regulation is different in the goal, however the center of a pattern is a point and the range is closer but the process is exactly the same. The actions, top levers, hammer and so on are the same and require the same fitting and labor those on a DR do. A shotgun will see use far rougher and many many times more shells through it than any DR will, so the quality has to be there either way. Also game guns are made to be light, where strength and quality are at a premium.

Planemech, you are absolutely correct where fine shotguns are concerened. The fitting is there, but you misunderstood what I wrote, or I didn't make myself clear. The fact is, a shotgun can allow far less fitting percision and still opperate fine, because of the low pressures of shot shells.The lock-ups don't need to be as robust, nor fitted as tightly, in a shotgun. That isn't, nor was it meant, to say, that no shotgun is fitted as well as any double rifle made. However, even a entry level double rifle may be rough in finish, and not fancy in the stock wood, but it MUST be tightley fitted,in it's action to barrels, and lock-up or it will come apart. There is far more strain on the lock-up, and keeping the barrels against the standing breech, with a 40,000 lbs of chamber pressure, than the 2 1/2 long tons in a shotgun!

The regulating of even top of the line shotguns is done on jigs, and I doubt there is one adjustment, after the jig, in 50 shotguns. It just isn't that hard to regulate a shotgun to place two 30" patterns over each other @ 35yds!

Certainly nobody would expect a $90K H&H, or Purdey shotgun not to have very percision work, in it's makeing! It does, but it is not necessary to keep the gun from coming apart, only to justify the price! Most top of the line shotguns from England will shoot loose with high brass shot shells, and they certainly couldn't stand 40,000 pounds of chamber pressure! And finally, what makes you think I've never handled quality shotguns!

That you said shotguns in general Mac. As for pressures no a shotgun doesn't hold 40K, yet it holds 10K with barrel walls as thin on some Birmingham guns as .025", even 1250 BAR proofed guns. As you know I'm sure an average 12 loading for a game gun 6.5lbs or so, 1 1/8oz, 950 BAR proof or CIP standard recoils about like a .30-06, and does so 100 times in a round of clays. You can't skimp the durability or have sloppy lock up and your locks better be sound and well hardened to take the repeated use. In your assumption you forget the choke as choke has to be regulated as well as POI, in the case of bespoke guns as to where it puts the paterns to point of aim 50/50, 60/40 or even 70/30 above or below POI and convergance distance. I say simply BOTH require skilled work neither inherently more precise or harder than the other, just different.

quote:

Originally posted by Planemech:
That you said shotguns in general Mac. As for pressures no a shotgun doesn't hold 40K, yet it holds 10K with barrel walls as thin on some Birmingham guns as .025", even 1250 BAR proofed guns. As you know I'm sure an average 12 loading for a game gun 6.5lbs or so, 1 1/8oz, 950 BAR proof or CIP standard recoils about like a .30-06, and does so 100 times in a round of clays. You can't skimp the durability or have sloppy lock up and your locks better be sound and well hardened to take the repeated use. In your assumption you forget the choke as choke has to be regulated as well as POI, in the case of bespoke guns as to where it puts the paterns to point of aim 50/50, 60/40 or even 70/30 above or below POI and convergance distance. I say simply BOTH require skilled work neither inherently more precise or harder than the other, just different.

As I said the fine shotguns have the fitting, the only point I was trying to make is, a shotgun that doesn't have tight fitting, will opperate just fine none the less. Look at all the $29.95 single barrel shotguns that are 75 yrs old, and still opperating perfectly.The fitting in that little Iver Johnson 410, would fly apart if chambered for a cartridge of only average rifle pressures.

IOW, the rifle must absolutely be fitted properly, and locked up tight, the shotgun doesn't have to be, eventhough it is desireable! Now, I'm through beating my head against the wall with this!