I recently purchased an A&N. I could tell that it had been reproofed by the proof marks. However I couldn't tell if it had been rebarreled. The barrels have the same serial # as the action. The University of Glasgow archives show that it was built in 1909 as a .450. The Proof house in Birmingham shows it was reproofed around 1989. It is now a .470.

I'd like to get some of your thoughts on how this rebarrel/reproof affects it's worth.

Thanks

Would almost think that it would have been more expedient to make a fresh set of barrels. I don't know how many were re-bored, rifled and re-chambered? Seems like the long way around.

Did Paul Roberts not do a lot of reboars and rechambers for DRs in that era?

Can you post a picture of the barrel flats?

Does your Army & Navy have chopper lump barrels or dove tail barrels?

Since you say that the barrels show re-proof it of course was re-bored. Re-boring was common at one time in UK and there were and are competent barrel men to do this.

What is the accuracy of the grouping that the rifle now shoots?

Not too unusual to see 450s rebored to 470.
Many nice rising bit Rigbys have suffered this fate.
I am guessing that the original 450 proofs were ground or milled off?
Do the barrels look thin to you?

Transvaal, you can see they are chopper lump barrels. I haven't shot it yet with any effort to check its accuracy.
Huvius, nothing looks ground off. The barrels are only a few thousands thinner than my London Rigby. Not really noticeable with the naked eye.
470 Evans, Picture included. Just curious what you wanted to look at.

armbar;

Looks like you have a complete new set of chopper lump barrels, not a rebored set of old barrels.

I can see the Birmingham Proof House viewers mark (cross swords) and the letter "P" signifies according to my records that the proof year was 1990.


Good luck on your fine purchase.

I know of a beautiful Rigby Rising Bite that was originally a 416 Rigby...YUP Rigby, and was shot out in India, rebored to 470, and a new set of 416 Rigby bbls made...now a beautiful 2 bbl set, cased>>> it was done by Rigby, beautiful work!!

Cheers,

quote:

Originally posted by Transvaal:
armbar;

Looks like you have a complete new set of chopper lump barrels, not a rebored set of old barrels.

I can see the Birmingham Proof House viewers mark (cross swords) and the letter "P" signifies according to my records that the proof year was 1990.


Good luck on your fine purchase.

Thanks Transvaal,

My limited research shows the same as you mentioned. What does this do to its value? I can imagine that in some ways it's better (safer, more accurate) but no longer original.

It certainly doesn't hurt it.

quote:

It certainly doesn't hurt it.

+1. Absolutely! I totally agree.

There's a load of bunkum posted, with no disrespect intended, on some US Forums about re-barrel and re-finishing of British guns.

Sadly that bunkum all too often then affects the prices that a gun makes when sold privately or when offered for sale.

These guns are and were all working guns. It'd be not at all uncommon for them to be at the very least to have the barrels re-blacked.

And if the barrels were shot out (or indeed pitted and ruined) to have the barrels replaced with a new set. If you had a car as long as that car existed would it not have had, when needed, a new clutch and a new set of brake pads?

Maybe even an engine re-bore of if the old engine was worn out beyond that broken beyond repair an new cylinder block? What's wrong with that? No different to a new set of barrels. Or a new breech pin or new springs or re-facing a pitted breech face.

Necessary refurbishment as would normally be expected. Yet some ignore that as it sensibly applies to a Ford Model-T or vintage Oldsmobile or whatever when the item is a British gun.

Lastly there is ANOTHER aspect to this that the OP hasn't considered. The .450 calibre became, in 1907, a prohibited calibre in parts of the British Empire.

The .470 NE, the .475 and etc., etc., all were introduced by Lang and others to replace it. So who is to say that rather than scrap a perfectly good rifle it wasn't re-barrelled THEN to .470 NE?

And that whilst, yes, the current visible proof is recent that doesn't mean that those replacement barrels are not older .470 replacements when .450 became prohibited?

To me the clue is possibly the darker LONDON PROVISIONAL proof mark at the chamber entry on each barrel. The gun has been re-proof tested of original replacement barrels IMHO.

Enfieldspares;

Good show. Those provisional proof marks were there all along and I ignored them.

I agree re-proofed and likely re-bored. What I do not agree with is the thought that this does not affect value. It greatly changes the value here in the States as would a re-barrel. Yes they are working tools but condition is everything. Would I buy a re-bored rifle? I sure would. Would I pay as much for one as I would for a rifle in similar original condition? No not at all, that would be foolish if I ever wanted to sell. Look around at what is for sale and what sells and what does not. If that Wilkes rifles Kirby has for sale was not re-chambered to 9.3x74R it would have sold long ago for more than he has it listed for. Once a gun is re-barreled, re-bored or re-chambered it has lost its appeal to collectors and has become simply a working gun. Nothing wrong with a working gun at all, but does affect the value. Just my opinion but I think the market shows my view to be very realistic.
Steve

A re-bore to a continental calibre, yes, whilst practical, I'd agree de-values the item. But my suspicion is that this Army & Navy was maybe re-bored to .470 or re-barrelled to that not longer after it was made because of its unusability the .450 calibre ban in 1907.

Also these old ledgers aren't always accurate. I have seen guns and compared them to a ledger entry and sometimes they are different.Very much so with Webley revolvers. Many for officers going to India were factory finished in nickel. But look just five, six, seven years later in the Webley day books and you'll see a lot, very many, coming back after 1914 with the note "remove nickel and re-black".

That, to me, is a valid factory gun. The same is with many of the High Velocity Fosbery .38 Auto revolvers. Many were "scrapped" by Webley and rebuilt, by Webley, as .455 calibre Fosbery revolvers.

There are also, of course, a lot of maker converted percussion to pinfire to centre fire British shot guns. A lot that Westley Richards did on their own guns. So never trust an initial ledger entry as a correct description of what the weapon should still be.

After all the Mighty Mo' that took the Japanese surrender in Tokyo Bay in 1945 is different in many ways from the same USS Missouri anchored in Hawaii.

I do not dis-agree that guns require maintenance(I am a gunsmith who mostly works on British guns after all), but to not acknowledge the value difference once significant work has been done is a mistake in my opinion. I believe a re-barrel, re-bore or re-chamber, with the exception of work documented by the maker, reduces the monetary value of a gun on the market while it may actually increased the practical working value of said firearm in the field. Look at the price of any British double "re-barreled by another"......just not the same and completely lacking in COLLECTOR value which is one of the principle driving factors in actual sale price. Like I said earlier, I would buy a re-barreled or re-bored gun but not for the same money as one in original condition. They do not have the same value and to think they do would be fooling yourself.

Armbar, thanks for posting the flats. 1909 would be a late 450. Love to see more pictures of the rifle. If it's a A.&W.C. it's a twin to my 470 William Evans.

I agree with SKB it's most likely a re-bore from a 450 to a 470. As to the impact on value, it's naïve to think there is none but difficult to put a # to it.

The Rigby posted in the link below was a re-bore from 450 to 470 as well and has been for sale for yrs in the States with no buyer. It will be interesting to see what / if its sells at the Julia's auction.

https://jamesdjulia.com/item/52239-1-397/

WOW!! Nice Piece....

Cheers,

470 Evans,
Thanks for the reply. Sorry, but what is A.&W.C.? For the life of me I can't put that together. May be the wine.
I'd be happy to post more pictures of the rifle, but I'd be more interested in seeing your Evans. Ever since reading Capstick, I've been keeping my eye out for an Evans. Not many available.
That Rigby is fabulous!

I will try to find a picture of my rifle.

I'm attaching a link to the Webley catalog from 1914 courtesy of Nitro Express.com that shows the Webley boxlock hammerless rifles beginning on page 28 and 29 of the catalog.

http://rbsiii.com/nitro_expres...201914%20Catalog.pdf

There were two actions offered, the A.&W.C. and the P.H.V.1 with different grades and options available within each model.

Thanks for the catalog. That is very cool. Looks like a lot of good info there.

quote:

Originally posted by enfieldspares:
A re-bore to a continental calibre, yes, whilst practical, I'd agree de-values the item. But my suspicion is that this Army & Navy was maybe re-bored to .470 or re-barrelled to that not longer after it was made because of its unusability the .450 calibre ban in 1907.

The above is absolutely true, and if this was re-bored to 470NE I agree that it was likely done when the ban was enacted, and done by the maker! If done by re-barreling may be the reason for the different serial numbers on the barrels.

In any case the value has taken a hit till the true information can be documented!

……………………………………………Mac

Mac,

The serial #'s match. The Birmingham proof marks indicate it was reproofed in 1989-90.

quote:

Originally posted by armbar:
Mac,

The serial #'s match. The Birmingham proof marks indicate it was reproofed in 1989-90.

Good! The re-proofing indicates re-boring! Now if you can find out if the re-boring was done by the maker the value will be restored to full price.

If done properly re-boring is not a problem, but does cause a customer to be a little wary. I have had two doubles that were re-chambered to wildcat rounds that were made much better as a result. That however is not always the case!
I look forward to hearing the result of this re-bored rifles regulation!

.....................................................................

Mac,

Ok, good.

Now, how do I determine who rebored it?

quote:

Originally posted by armbar:
Mac,

Ok, good.

Now, how do I determine who rebored it?

If the MAKER did the re-boring it will be in their records. A letter to the maker requesting information on the re-bore. There is usually a fee of about $15 for this! If it was done by the maker you need to retain their letter with the rifle!

................................................................ Mac

Armbar,

Based on the proof marks I suspect the rifle was rebored in 1989.

Army Navy, who retailed the gun is long gone as is Webley, if they in fact built the gun.
I would contact Paul Roberts in London who did a lot of work on double rifles in that timeframe to see if he has have any record of it. John Resteghini who works there may be able to assist.

http://www.jroberts-gunmakers.co.uk/about.php

Absent that, I would have it inspected by JJ to make sure the rifle is sound and whatever work was done was completed in an appropriate manner, then go enjoy it.

quote:

Originally posted by 470Evans:
Armbar,

Based on the proof marks I suspect the rifle was rebored in 1989.

Army Navy, who retailed the gun was long gone as was Webley, if they in fact built the gun.
I would contact Paul Roberts in London who did a lot of work on double rifles in that timeframe to see if he has have any record of it. John Resteghini who works there may be able to assist.

http://www.jroberts-gunmakers.co.uk/about.php

Absent that, I would have it inspected by JJ to make sure the rifle is sound and whatever work was done was completed in an appropriate manner, then go enjoy it.

..............Sound advice!

470 Evans,

Great idea. I will contact PR to see if he has any info on the rifle.

Thanks for the advice.

Todd

Just a thought

What would a new in box unused Webly made DR cost now, if one emerged? $60k max or even less is my guess.

Used guns are being priced anywhere from $10k to 25k. I know of one here in NZ - a William Evans 450 NE (Webley) and the guy wants about US$25k

So what is argument about holding value??? If it is a rebore and in really good nick, it would be in that ball park - right?