Just wondering what the feelings/experiences are about cast stocks for DR's. Very popular on the skeet/trap line but not spoken too often around here.

Seems like adding cast would be an advantage in field performance.

What say ye?

The stocks on double rifles need to fit.

Cast on/off etc has to work with the individual shooter, just like any other gun or rifle.



Cheers
Tinker

Although they both have double barrels rifles and shotguns are differant animals.

I think the main consideration for the rifle is the recoil of a big bore. The stock really needs to be designed for recoil control and although a little cast may be ok a lot of cast on or off (depending on right or left handed) would cause it to be hard to control for the second shot. also I think it would be really hard to regulate a rifle that had a lot of cast.

The rifle needs to fit. If the rifle needs cast to fit the owner than the question is answered. A things the same, cast required can be reduced by added stock length - to a point.

JPK

Any gun destined for fast shooting, be it shotgun or rifle, will greatly benefit from an individually fitted stock with cast and drop. All quality doubles I know, smoothbores or rifles, are built likewise.

I will express my ignorance, but can someone define "cast"? As I am not familiar with term, I feel a bit left out.

quote:

Originally posted by bkhall:
I will express my ignorance, but can someone define "cast"? As I am not familiar with term, I feel a bit left out.

Hope this helps


Cast Off - An offset of a gun stock to the right, so that the line of sight aligns comfortably with the right eye while the butt of the stock rests comfortably on the right shoulder.

The only question is how much. The castoff of a gun is about right when, with the gun comfortably mounted, the front bead lines up with the center of the standing breech.

A stock offset to the left, for shooting from the left shoulder is said to be Cast On.

If you have one of the high end guns built for you and fitted for you OK I can see that.

Here's my question though. So many times cast is added to a shotgun by stock bending. This quite often changes the harmonics of the recoil, so if this were done to a double rifle will it not change regulation?

That actually makes good sense. By allowing for proper sight alignment, great "jump" shooting can occur. With my old Fox shotgun the drop on the comb is not quite right, so I find myself having to sink my face into the stock before every shot. At this point with my history with the shotgun and the amount of use we have suffered together, it is by instinct I do this, a no more premeditated action then flipping the safety when I raise to shot a passing dove.

Now I know the word for it. Thanks gents.

quote:

Originally posted by Akshooter:
If you have one of the high end guns built for you and fitted for you OK I can see that.

Here's my question though. So many times cast is added to a shotgun by stock bending. This quite often changes the harmonics of the recoil, so if this were done to a double rifle will it not change regulation?

Sometimes, restocking a DR can change the regulation but our very good stockist over here has only had it happen occasionally.

But i can see your point where it could.

AKshooter:
It is my understanding that when a rifle is constructed the cast of the stock requires that the action actually (as well as the tang) "follow" the cast. This can be tricky and it is usually better to have a stock fit the action than attempt to have the action fit the stock. Or, in other words, have a new stock made rather than using the heat-with-oil method of bending the wood to cast specifications.

I had all of this explained when I had my double built and sorry if I did not explain it clearly. I am not very mechanically inclined.


Dutch

quote:

Originally posted by bigfats:
Just wondering what the feelings/experiences are about cast stocks for DR's. Very popular on the skeet/trap line but not spoken too often around here.

Seems like adding cast would be an advantage in field performance.

What say ye?

Correct cast is required for perfect fit, and a fine double rifle is no different whatsoever from a fine double shotgun in this regard.

When cast is needed for correct fit, lack of it will contribute to the comb hitting the shooter in the cheekbone, transmitting recoil to the face instead of the shoulder in the large calibers. The greater the recoil, the more important correct fit is.
-------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Dutch44
I understand, I think we're on the same page.

The point I'm trying to make is that any cast built into a double rifle should come when the rifle is being built and before it is regulated.

Lets bring this a step further and ask if a rifle is built without cast and has a reasonable amount of drop then the rifle will recoil upward. This rifle will be regulated accordingly.

For this discution lets say their is a rifle built with an extream amount of cast. This rifle will recoil up and to right or left.

I may be wrong but it seems to me that this would open up a hudge can of worms for the regulation. I'm not sure about this I'd like to hear from someone who has expiriance with it.

Finally taking this yet one more step if you have a double rifle that is completed and regulated and if you for what ever reason wanted to change the cast or add cast to he gun by ether bending (as is so common with shotguns)or restocking the rifle I don't see how it would'nt affect the regulation.

I have never heard of someone changing the cast of their rifle but if anyone here has I'd like to hear about it.

AKshooter:
Good point on the direction of recoil. I had a Rigby 450-400 rifle that recoiled in a twisting motion in the hands that was very pronounced. Extremely accurate at 3/4 inch at 50 yards and 1.3 inches at 100 yards. However, that rifle did twist in my grip. On the other hand I had a Rigby 450 3 1/4 whose felt recoil was a good push straight back.

There are so many dimensions to a stock, toe, heel, comb, cant, cast drop, pitch, etc... that I would not know how to offer an informed opinion. My stocks were built to my measurements so the "felt" recoil is significantly less than those doubles that I have owned that were not well fitting.

Dutch

Dutch44
I've heard the twisting motion mentioned before in regaurds to regulating a rifle. It seems that is an expected funtion of the rifle.

Actully this is getting away from the original topic and I am at fault for that by bringing in any question of regulation.

I just fast forward to some weird idea of someone hot oil bending a rifle like you would a shotgun. I doubt that that is even possible unless the rifle were straight gripped. Especially if the rifle was a sidelock with the tang extended over the comb.

quote:

It is my understanding that when a rifle is constructed the cast of the stock requires that the action actually (as well as the tang) "follow" the cast.

Not true. I've seen a lot of guns that have had cast added or reduced. It depends on how far the top strap extends back.

Certainly it will never affect the cation either boxlock or sidelock as the ben is done in the area of the hand behind the rear of the trigger guard.

So the back strap of the trigger gurad may need to be bent - no great problem - but never except in cases where it is long (like some of Holland's double rifles) on most shot guns.

Usually on most English shot guns deliberately not far enough back to stop the cast being altered by an amount expected for the variation between a "normal" adults.

Csat can also be increased, at least cast off, by hollowing the stock. In fact Holland's traditionally used more than the traditional two cast measurements to have this.

The big disadvantage in that is that you then can't really alter the cast by bending.

When it comes to drop or bend - and stock length - there should usually be more bend on a double side by side rifle than on a double side by side shot gun. And the stock shorter.

Why? The rifle must shot to point of aim. The shot gun to put 60% of the pattern above the point of aim.

Fit can also be governed by barrel length in a shot gun. Long barrels - 30" - have - from memory negative flip when fired and short barrels - from memory positive flip.

As the barrels on a double rifle are shorter I would not just get a stocker to transpose your 30" side by side Purdey 12 bore shot gun stocking dimensions to your Holland's .300" side by side rifle!

Shot guns need cast because they have no backsight. Your eye performs that role. So in broad terms cast is designed to put your eye in the position you would find something like a tang mounted backsight.

Rifles have a backsight so as when you mount the gun your head will correct the mount until your eye finds the backsight it isn't as important.

Recoil is also a factor! To much cast it a gun that has a lot of recoil is like a blow in the face! The straighter the stock in terms of cast the less the recoil you will feel!

Over time cast can change in a person. You get fatter in the face. Either put on or lose weight in the chest etc., etc.

So after you make forty years old have a second fitting!

Length will remain the same pretty much from year to year.