I just bought my first double and have purchased some factory ammo to start but will want to load my own as soon as the dies and components I ordered arrived.

My question is there a noticeable difference in recoil between loads using RL-15 and IMR-4831? I am hesitant to use a filler or wad that seems to be necessary with the RL-15. Also I no longer use RL-15 in my other rifles having changed over to Varget. I'm trying cut down on the # of different powders I use and just by more at a time of the ones I use when it's available. I do use a lot of H4831sc and would like to start with that.

quote:

Originally posted by hidalgo:

My question is there a noticeable difference in recoil between loads using RL-15 and IMR-4831?

Yes. I would not let filler fear dissuade me from using RL15. There is a very noticeable, in my opinion, difference in felt recoil between RL15 and IMR/H4831.

I second Mike's reply. A HUGE difference in felt recoil. A little kapok will keep the powder next to the primer for proper ignition. I still use 4831 in my nitro rifles from .450-400 on up to .600 as I have so much of the damn stuff!
I found accuracy to be the same in either powder.
Cal

Mike and Cal,

Thanks that's the info was looking for.

Cal, I'm send you a check for your book.

Jay

I third what Mike and Cal say. Noticeable difference in recoil although I use 4831 in my 475 No. 2 due to the accuracy I obtain. RL 15 in all others. I like less recoil.

Once I tried the re15, I never went back. Great accuracy and velocity......less recoil. Win, win, win.

.

In my 470 I tried many different load combinations with R15, nothing worked well. When I tried IMR4831 it regulated great but with a noticeable increase in felt recoil.

In my 500/450 which is the same basic case just a .458 bullet the R15 shot great. I've used different filler material but find the ones sold by Kynoch hard to beat for ease and convenience.

My preference between the two would be R15.

Where in Texas are you located and what double did you buy?

470Evans what powder charge with RE15 and Bullet and weight did you find works best in you 500/450 please?

I also find the Kynoch wads very good.

Thanks, Chris

Trader Keith has foam wads of the proper diameter.
http://traderkeith.com/products.html

During my evolution of loading for my 450 3.25NE I use to load RL15 with 3grns of poly, but went to H4831 to avoid using fillers. Since then I have gone from 100grns of H4831sc to 92grns H4350 behind a 480grn bullet, Still no fillers. Do I notice a difference? Sorry to say I have never shot them side by side, but I'm not so concerned with compression. Today with what we know about fillers from Micheal 458 pressure testing I would not hesitate to use foam fillers
Both of my loads give or take a grain or two came from Wright's book.
Good shooting lets us know how it goes.

I'm going to order some Kynoch wads and give the RL15 a try.

I'm in San Antonio and purchased a Heym 89B.

Hidalgo,

Congratulations, that is a fine rifle. Let us know how you make out.

Chris, pm sent.

quote:

Originally posted by hidalgo:
I'm going to order some Kynoch wads and give the RL15 a try.

I'm in San Antonio and purchased a Heym 89B.

The Kynoch wads work great. In my experience somewhere between 85-87 grains of RL15, topped with a Kynoch wad and a 500 grain bullet using a Federal 215M primer will regulate well. As always, start low and work up.

quote:

Originally posted by hidalgo:
I'm going to order some Kynoch wads and give the RL15 a try.

I'm in San Antonio and purchased a Heym 89B.

Or buy a bag (short roll) of backer rod in the correct diameter at Home Depot or Lowe's and cut pieces to length. Works fine.

quote:

Originally posted by DoubleDon:

quote:

Originally posted by hidalgo:
I'm going to order some Kynoch wads and give the RL15 a try.

I'm in San Antonio and purchased a Heym 89B.

Or buy a bag (short roll) of backer rod in the correct diameter at Home Depot or Lowe's and cut pieces to length. Works fine.

And a hell of a lot cheaper than Kynoch, too.
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:

quote:

Originally posted by DoubleDon:

quote:

Originally posted by hidalgo:
I'm going to order some Kynoch wads and give the RL15 a try.

I'm in San Antonio and purchased a Heym 89B.

Or buy a bag (short roll) of backer rod in the correct diameter at Home Depot or Lowe's and cut pieces to length. Works fine.

And a hell of a lot cheaper than Kynoch, too.
Cal

Agreed. Just chose not to include the savings in cost to a Gent who bought a new 89B

Who doesn't like a deal. Which size would
work better in a .470, the 3/8" or 1/2"?

I have a set of 470 dies if you would like to borrow...I'm right north of you, in Spring Branch area...

505ED,

Got some dies coming, thanks for the offer.

quote:

Originally posted by hidalgo:
Who doesn't like a deal. Which size would
work better in a .470, the 3/8" or 1/2"?

IIRC .470 Nitro shoots a .475 diameter bullet. Thus, I would use a 1/2" dia. backer rod. Cal, please review my math. Thanks In advance.

Yes half inch, that is what the case is based on.

I use 1/2" backer rod for 400 through 500. And 5/8 rod for 577. I would first try a load of Varget to see how it goes since you have it. It's damn close to RL15 and in my experience is a ton more consistent from lot to lot. I think even maybe Sam and Michael did some load data with Varget.

The factory ammo I ordered came in so I was able to shoot the .470 today. Hornady 500gr DGSs were perfectly regulated and sights were dead on at 50 yards. Velocity was right at 2225 fps and remarkably consistent ( Chris at HEYM was right ). Glad I got a Labradar last month it worked perfectly and I did not have to worry about shooting my chronograph while using iron sights. Nosler Solids were about the same velocity but with a lot more variance it did not seem to affect the accuracy any though. Barnes 500 gr Flatnose Solids were a lot slower at 2000fps and were not regulated.

Got so inspired with the iron sights I pulled the scope off my .375 bolt action so could shoot at some of my steel targets.

I got the Docter reflex sight sighted in not sure I like it.

Dies should be here this week and I'll start on the reloads.

If you run out of or can't find RL-15 use Norma 203B. Same powder just a different batch. You will love rl-15/Norma 203B. Extremely uniform velocity as long as you use foam or poli fill to hold it against the primer. I use magnum match primers. Federal Gold Medal Match 215 M

Rain broke long enough today for me to try the loads with RL-15 and Barnes 500 gr Solids. Started at 85 grs and went up to 87 grs, 86 to 87 grs regulated well horizontally but getting about 2" vertical spread with the left barrel low at 60 yards. Velocity is very uniform at 2120fps avg with the 87 gr load.

You guys were right the RL-15 loads seems significantly less the Hornady factory loads though they are about 100 fps slower.

May try going to 87.5 and 88.0 to get less vertical spread between barrels and a little more velocity or I might just go with the 87 gr load as it's right at 2" and over 2100 fps.

Shot at 60 yards as my range has creek crossing it and 60 is as far as I can go before I jump to 100 yards.

If I want the ultimate in velocity then IMR or H-4831 is the number one choice hands down..but I don't see the need nor any other reason for shooting a .470 at 2245 FPS..

My favorite buffalo load is a nice load of RL-15 with a 500 gr. bullet and a wad, at 2020 FPS with a 500 gr. bullet..I shot a lot of buffalo with that load and am more than satisfied in that it knocks the living crap out of a buff, as does the faster load, but the RL-15 load is nicer to my aged shoulder, and in my gun shoots to the same POI as the faster load that my gun was regulated for..I also feel like my return from recoil for the second shot is faster..I know I shot both barrels fast as I could on a wounded buff and the shots were but 3 inches apart..I tested that with the 2224 FPS load and the 2020 loads when I got home and the shots were the same 3" vertical sepertation with the slow velocity but 7.5"s apart with the fast load..

Killing effect on a number of buffalo with both was the same as far as I could tell.

Hidalgo,
Did you try any loads with the RL 15 with the Hornady bullets? Hornady manual shows a pretty low velocity before hitting max with that powder.

I called Hornady and spoke with one of their tech specialists. He said they ran into pressures with the RL15 at a charge (unspecified) that resulted in their published book max being so low. With a Ruger #1, what I believe to be a pretty strong action, that caught my attention. No surprise, any of that, but it was good to confirm the Hornady manual's low velocities shown for RL15.

He did not share their factory load components, as they are considered proprietary. Understandable.

I did not use any Hornady bullets but I did load up some 500gr Woodleigh solids with RL-15. I got right up to 2100fps before the barrels started crossing( I was using a wad).

I've been more focused on working up a load with a Northfork solid, unfortunately with all bullets I seem to get a lot of vertical dispersion with the RL-15.

I've pretty much settled on a Northfork solid in front of H-4831SC for a velocity of 2150fps, this regulates well and gives good accuracy from my rifle.

When I get back from my hunt I'll start working up a soft point load.

Working up loads in doubles to me is almost a waste of time unless you don't know what load your double was regulated with, therefore you must find it the hardway. Most English doubles tend to shoot only one specific load or so it seems to me.

Based on that I have been surprised as to how close my 3 Searcy doubles have shot most of the loads I tried to the same POI?? A 470,and two 450-400s..... My 470 Searcy, for instance shot a RL-15 load at 2020 FPS load to the exact same POI as it does a the regulation load of IMR-4831 at 2245 FPS..I needed a less recoiling load and it worked out great..Searcy rifles are inclined to do this for whatever reason, Only one of my English guns did this. but to a lesser degree. Most of the time I use one load in a double and that's the regulation load and the solid with 1 or 2 grs. less than a soft usually works just fine...I don't play around much with doubles like I do bolt guns..To me my doubles have one purpose and that's to shoot DG up fairly close.

The challenge is twofold, and that's why I unfortunately need to tinker a bit with working up a load. As the wise Mr. Atkinson pointed out, try to stick with the load that your double is regulated with. Problems is.... I can't !

Challenge #1 - I DON'T know the regulation loading for my 470 since it done with Federal ammo using Woodleigh Weldcore. I know the ammo, but not the component powder, and the primer is a Federal 216, thus not commercially available. So reloading to factory specs is out. Too bad.

Challenge #2 - I want to use a different bullet than the Woodleigh. That's a great bullet, but likely more sturdy than is desirable for taking a lion. And that's why I'm using the Hornady DGX. Feedback from several sources is that while penetration is good, it is also appropriately "soft" for lions in the 470.

I think I would like to use RL15, and will see if I can get the gun to shoot both barrels relatively well with that powder/bullet combo. And I will settle for a bit less velocity (per the Hornady manual)in order to use this powder. I was a bit concerned about needing a filler wad, so called Hornady. The tech person said their loading data did not have any wads included.

So...I'm moving ahead with seeing how all of this will shoot.

Good comments by all - thank you!

H T, Graeme Wright reccomends a wad with RE15, as do many others. He discusses the Federal load without a wad and the use of their 216 primer.

Personally I would use a wad with a lower load density powder like RE15.

Cheers, Chris

I always used Kynoch foam wads with RL-15. I never got any pressure with RL-15 and recoil was always less of course in that I shot it at 2020 FPS to get the same POI as I got with the regulation load of IMR-4831 at 2245 FPS...I always buy the kynoch foam wads at SCI. but they will ship them to you..

For Lion however I personally would opt for the fast regulation load of 2245 FPS in that Lions being hot blooded and tense tend to die faster with velocity up there...I would beware of soft bullets on Lion, or light bullets, they are alleged to be a soft animal but that must be from comparing them to buffalo and elephant or probably someones imagination, and the masses believed it..They ain't all that soft my friend, they have a lot of muscle and sinue. The Lion loads by A square came apart like a bomb and the results were disturbing to say the least, they simply didn't work under most conditions. He lead many to believe they were the ultimate Lion bullet and that has remained valid to many based only on his say so...

As to a Woodleigh "RN 500 gr." bullet it is much softer than a "PP" and with a lot of lead exposed it will set a Lion on his haunches big time, It expands well enough on Leopard and even on Plainsgame. The PP is the penetrator for hunting dagga boys, in a herd situation the RN is the way to go so you don't shoot thru a buff and hit another one. The RN will stop on the off side of a buff about every time...I field tested the PP and the RN for Geoff (Woodleigh) before the bullets were released to the public..I even had a hand in designing the RN 350 and 450 gr. bullets in the 375 and 40 caliber..Geoff told me the PP would be a better all around and buffalo bullet, I told him the RN would be best, Geoff was correct of course.