I’m planning to order a 9.3x74R double later this year. From what I’ve read on this board it likely will be a Chapuis UGEX. I want to have it regulated with a scope, but want to do everything I can to have it also regulate well with the express sights. I plan the scope to be a Leupold 1.75-6x32 VX-III and am hoping its low weight helps with the goal regulating well with or without the scope.

The only QD mounts I have used are the old German claw type on my pre-war drilling. I really like this set up. However, I understand that the lower the scope is mounted, the more likely the rifle is to regulate well both with scope and with express sights. Can claw mounts be very low or will something like the Chapuis pivot QD mounts I’ve seen mentioned on this forum be noticeably lower? Cost aside, what QD mounts for a double like the Chapuis UGEX will mount the scope the lowest and also give absolutely reliable return to zero?

Brazos_Jack

I use MAK on my Merkel 141 and they give absolutely perfect zero after removal. I imagine Chapuis would do the same. I beleive they are Recknagel. I replaced the blocks in my Chapuis with custom ones for Ruger rings. I had to use medium rings as the low didn't allow for comfortable operation of the top lever. I used the factory reccomendations from MAK on my Merkel. They wanted to know the scope to be used as the front bell determines the minimum height. My scope on both my Chapuis and my Merkel has been a Leupold VariX-III 1.5-5.

I had Talley mounts on my Chapuis UGEX 9.3X74R. I switched to EAW pivot mounts. They are pricey, but great. I have not used the MAK, but hear good things about them, including price.

There is no better return to zero mount than a properly made Claw mount..The next best thing is probably, argueably, the Talleys..If you custom cut your bases and fit Talleys up properly then they are quite good at return to zero...

My plan for my 9.3 is to install the Recknagels in the precut blocks, eyeball bore sight it best I can, and go shoot to sight in.

Best is undoubtedly the Sühler claw mount, which guarantees solidity, absolute return to zero and low mounting, as seen on my 9,3x74R FN o/u. The only reproach is cost because hand filing and rebluing (after brazing on) all add to the already costly bill.


Second choice (practically as good and less expensive) are the swing out mounts by EAW, Recknagel and MAK. I've not yet installed one of the latter but handled several and they appeared to be of comparable quality, though less expensive.

I believe that you can't go wrong with any of those 4, whichever you choose.

The Chapuis UGEX has removable inserts in the rib to facilitate scope mounting. About how much will it cost for the Sühler claw mounts and fitting to put a Leupold VX-3 1.75x6 on the Chapuis?

Brazos_Jack

Claw mounts with installation will cost you about $1000. German pivot type will be less than $400 (plus installation if required)

I bought the EAW pivot mount and rings from NECG for around $400. They work great and very easy to install on the Chapuis (I still entrusted the installation to my gunsmith).

Great set-up. They also offer a peep sight that fits onto the EAW mounts, which I am considering.

If that peep mounts on the rear base it needs to be huge to be effective. Best to stay with the v-blade.

I can't see the V blade. The NECG peep has two different sized changeable discs. If they don't work I intend to remove them and shoot thru the hole, or in the alternative, drill out the disc to a larger size. However, for now, I am content with the scope set-up.

The MAK pivot mount uses an excentric spacer in the rear ring to get the proper heighth. They come in various thicknesses. They even sent me a collet to chuck one in the lathe if I had to cut to a more exact thickness. The way the spacer is mounted and the fact that the hole is off center allows it to be rotated moving the rear of the scope and therefore giving you windage adjustment. My Merkel actually had a blank in the front dovetail and the proper base in the rear to fit the MAK rings. The fitting was straightforward and easy. With the Chapuis with both blocks being held in by screws it should be even easier to install.

quote:

Originally posted by Brazos Jack:
I’m planning to order a 9.3x74R double later this year. From what I’ve read on this board it likely will be a Chapuis UGEX. I want to have it regulated with a scope, but want to do everything I can to have it also regulate well with the express sights. I plan the scope to be a Leupold 1.75-6x32 VX-III and am hoping its low weight helps with the goal regulating well with or without the scope.

Keeping weight low will help with your goal. Have it regulated with the scope you intend to use at the factory. Most of the time, accuracy with the sights will still be adequate for iron sight ranges.

quote:

The only QD mounts I have used are the old German claw type on my pre-war drilling. I really like this set up.

Since that's what you're used to, and you like it, then by all means, get the claw. It's the fastest (it's the ONLY QD detachable system, the others are SD) and strongest, and offers the most reliable return to zero. It's more expensive, but worth it. You get what you pay for. Spending the $$$ on a nice double and then settling for an inferior scope mounting system to save $600 isn't just false economy, it's just plain dumb.

quote:

However, I understand that the lower the scope is mounted, the more likely the rifle is to regulate well both with scope and with express sights.

I don't know where you heard that, but one has nothing to do with the other. The height of the scope on a rifle that regulates well with the scope has zero to do with how well it regulates with the scope off.

quote:

Can claw mounts be very low or will something like the Chapuis pivot QD mounts I’ve seen mentioned on this forum be noticeably lower?

A scope can be mounted just as low in claws as with a pivot type. Look, any scoped double rifle is a compromise. If it fits you perfectly for iron sight shooting (it should, and you need to order it to your measurements), it won't be an ideal fit with the scope - it's impossible for it to fit perfectly for both. However, the lower the scope is mounted, then the closer to a correct fit for use with the scope it will be. That's the only reason that scope height is important. It's a double rifle, so drop needs to be correct for a perfect fit for you for iron sight shooting, not use with the scope. The scope is an auxiliary sighting system on a double rifle, and should be regarded as such.

Don't make the mistake of mounting your scope TOO low. It isn't a bolt rifle. Re-read Rusty's post. With the original Talley type on his Chapuis, the scope was so low that the rifle couldn't be opened in the conventional manner. Impossible to reach the toplever with the thumb. The rifle had to be rolled on it's side, and the top lever pushed open with a straightened forefinger - not what you want on a double rifle - hence the change in mounts. You need enough clearance for fast, normal operation.

quote:

Cost aside, what QD mounts for a double like the Chapuis UGEX will mount the scope the lowest and also give absolutely reliable return to zero?

Again, it isn't a bolt rifle. For doubles, the claw is easily the best in every way except cost, but is not enough more expensive for that to be a deterrent. You get what you pay for. Despite the bargain price, the little Chapuis is a fine rifle, and deserves the best.
-----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

400 Nitro Express,

I probably will opt for the claw mount for all the reasons you state.

I also agree that for doubles there is such a thing as too low a scope mount.

But the hight of the scope above the rifle's center of mass does make a difference. The more the scope's mass and the further it is from the rifles center of mass, the more it will alter the way the rifle behaves in recoil. So the closer the mass and position of the center of mass of the rifle and scope together is to the mass and location of center of mass of the rifle alone, the more similar will be the regulation with and without scope.

So I'll try to get the scope mounted as low as I can and still be able to actuate the opening lever and safety easily in the normal manner.

I was initially concerned that this would not be possible with a claw mount because the mount on my drilling is quite high and incoporates the windage adjustment. The pre-war Ziess is adjustable for elevation only.

Brazos Jack

quote:

Originally posted by Brazos Jack:
But the hight of the scope above the rifle's center of mass does make a difference. The more the scope's mass and the further it is from the rifles center of mass, the more it will alter the way the rifle behaves in recoil. So the closer the mass and position of the center of mass of the rifle and scope together is to the mass and location of center of mass of the rifle alone, the more similar will be the regulation with and without scope.

Nope. I thought I'd heard 'em all, but I've never heard that one before. Many of the pre-war British and continental DRs had tall mounts, some of them see-through, and it doesn't work out that way. The one factor that, at least in theory, should virtually always effect regulation is the added weight of the scope and mounts. The added weight dampens recoil and reduces movement of the barrels in the recoil arc during barrel time, changing regulation. It can work out that way, but usually doesn't...
-----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Before making a final decision here are a couple of things to think about.
1) Who is going to provide and install your claw mounts, and how long will this process take? This is not a job for the avg gunsmith in the US.
2) What scope are you going to use? A scope with a objective bell or unusual length may require the base to be located at a different rib location than where the factory provided cut-outs are.
3) Because of the design the use claw mounts may limit your choices, if in the future you want to change scopes.

Kebco,

I hadn’t thought about that.

The two scopes I plan to use with this rifle are the Leupold VX-III 1.75-6x32 and the Leupold VX-III Illuminated Reticle 1.5-5x20.

Has anyone mounted either of these on a 9.3x74R Chapuis UGEX using a claw mount?

Brazos_Jack

Kebco you hit the nail on the head with that posting. I also don't think that claw mounts are always the best way to go.

Claw mounts are really beautifull well made (by the right person) and totally flawless mounts that are in many cases are the right choice for any traditional european rifle. That is why both of my double rifles have claw mounts.

Thier are drawbacks to a claw mount. Let me try and list them for you many of wich Kebco has already mentioned.

My main problem with claw mounts are that they don't allow for wear. Any QD mount is a moving part and will wear in time. Keep them well oiled and don't slam them around when you remove or replace the scope and you will probably never see them wear out. Most don't but I've seen them worn out on a few rifles and had one set wear out on me.

I won't get into the expence thing thats been covered except to say if you choose claw mounts keep them expensive. Don't cut any corners because there is no gunmaker in the US who can properly install claw mounts that is selling there time cheap. If you find someone who promises cheap claw mounts run away the other direction.

like Kebco said once you chose your scope and have it mounted with claw mounts your commited. The front ring will be mounted around the the bell of the objective lens to allow the scope to tip forward when being removed. This is somtimes a problem with American made scopes because the rings supplied by the companys that make the claw mount blanks build them to fit the outside diameter bell of various European scope manufacturers. Yes they make rings to fit scopes with 32mm objectives I have 3 Zeiss 6x32 scope set up in claw mounts but remember the measurement is the lens diameter and the outside diameter will vary. I experianced a problem with this when I hade a 6x42 Leupold mounted on a BBF. My gunmaker had to use a tiny little shim around the inside of the ring to make it fit properly. You can overcome all this by choosing a straight tube scope. You will even be able to swich it out later with another straight tube scope or one that has a very small objective bell.

Claw mounts don't really adjust for windage. The windage screws on the rear ring of claw mounts are there for alignment and to relive stress. Yes many of the older European scopes were built without windage adjustments and you can use the windage screws in a pinch but there is nothing for the front ring to pivot on. All your doing is torqueing the scope body. Don't get me wrong I've done it but it's far from ideal.

A pivoting mount like E.A.W. have total adjustment for windage, elevation and for wear. They are much easier and cheaper to install and they work just as flawlessly as claw mounts. Since they swing to the side instead of forward they can be mounted on the tube of the scope wich will allow you to later change scopes if you choose.

Now that you probably think I hate claw mounts I'll tell you that I have had nine sets installed over the years and number 10 is now in the works. I've also purchased a few rifles that already had them. They are great and I love mine but before making this kind of investment you should have as much input as possible before making your decision.

Akshooter,
While I agree 100% with your saying there's no such thing as a cheap quality claw mount, considering the highly skilled handlabour involved,I still beg to differ on some points :

- windage adjustment : look at this pic of my rifle and you will see that the front base fits in a (brazed on) dovetail and is laterally adjustable ;
- decades ago the front ring was soldered to the scopes's objective bell. This is no longer the case nowadays with the rail scopes (see my 1st. pic above). The mounts are held by crossscrews through the solid prism of the rail and the objective's bell diameter does not come into play.

Andre-
If you are trying to get some windage adjustment by moving the front base left or right of the center line you are bending/twisting the scope and your rings may not any longer line up with the base.
Also scopes with rails although common in Europe are still fairly rare in the US. I am not aware of a Leupold scope that Brazos wants to use made with rails, so he will have to use claw rings that go around the objective bell or tube. This may effect where the scope base is mounted on the rib.
Who in the US will provide and fit his claw rings? Also what is the time frame (I bet it is 6 months to a year, maybe longer).
When claw mounts are fitted it requires the gunsmith to carefully fit the rings to the base with a file. So that it can be worked with a file the steel is somewhat soft. This point goes to the point AKshooter made, the rings can and will wear.
I also have a number of guns with claw rings and some with German pivot mounts. Both have applications and worked well for me but Brazos needs to consider all the advantages and disadvantages before making a decision. When I order a new gun for myself I always specify the pivot mounts. I am in the US and I have found it is a much easier system to work with from here.

IMO, if scopeing a classic double rifle, a practice frowned on by many, one should us a period claw mount scope! However, on a modern,double rifle I prefere a quality swivel mount.

Though I am a lover of old double rifles, I'm not one of the "NEVER SCOPE" a double rifle crowd! If you need a scope then install one, but have the work done by a master double rifle expert. If you have a "CLASSIC" that you can't shoot because of the lack of a scope, and want to maintain the integrity of the rifle, send it to the maker and spend the extra money and have it done by them, and documented. To me, it is silly to have a rifle as expensive as a good double and not make it as versetile as possible.

Ditto Mac37

Brazos Jack

I have several "guns"[some are rifles, some are Drillings] with claw mounts.

Properly done they are one of if not the best.

Your Chapuis should have the rib pre cut for scope bases. Two screws are removed for each base, the rib section "pops out" and the scope base is attached with the 2 screws.

You can get either claw bases or a pivot mount base.

The problem is the positions for the bases is predetermined. As a result you need to choose your scope to fit the base [and thus the proper ring spacing] of the rifle.

A friend has a 470 Chapuis with claw mounts and his 1-4 Swarovske scope fits fine.

On my 9,3x74R Chapuis I have the pivot mount.
I have 2 scopes in pivot rings for this rifle.

One a Leupold 2.5-8 with the heavy duplex.
The other a 1.5-6x42 Swarovski, with illuminated circle dot reticle.

Both of these scopes fit the base/ring spacing perfectly giving the proper eye relief and clearence for my thumb to open the action.

My rifle was regulated for 293gr RWS TUG ammo with the iron sights.

I have had no trouble finding loads with bullets from 270gr to 286gr, that regulate well with the ironsights AND with the scopes mounted.

I have taken game as far as 300 yards with the scopes mounted.

On a big bore double I would definately prefer a claw mount.

However, I have found the factory pivot mount on my Chapuis 9,3 to work perfect, return to zero is just fine.

quote:

The problem is the positions for the bases is predetermined. As a result you need to choose your scope to fit the base [and thus the proper ring spacing] of the rifle.

Maybe the solution to this issue is one of the rail mounted Swaros, S&B or Kahles, etc?

Seems to eliminate many of the limitations, at least as far as the turrets go.

JPK

Most pivot mounts I’ve ever seen pics of (never seen one “in the fleshâ€) had an offset front ring to get around the base placement issue. I have seen one (and only one) pic of a claw mount with such an offset ring. Why isn’t this done more often? As long as the front of the scope didn’t go forward of the front base (it could be back behind the front base) more than the mounting height, you shouldn’t have any problem removing the scope.

Since I’ve narrowed my scope choice down to wanting both a Leupold VX-III 1.75-6x and a Leupold VX-III 1.5-5x, has anyone used either of these specifically in a claw mount on a Chapuis UGEX?

Recknagel Pivot Mounts is the only way to go I think, especially designed by Recknagel for the Chapuis Double Rifle or a different mount for the Chapuis "Challenger" Rifle. Both I have and use with perfect return to Zero. Both have S&B Zenith scopes with illuminated recticles.