Hello All,
I was thinking the other day about how double rifles are regulated for a specific load and that any other load will not work as well.

Do you think this might be because of the solid ribs holding the barrels together?
If the rib was gone for all but the first and last 4 inches, do you think the regulation would be more forgiving to loads of different power levels?

Forgive me if this is to simplistic, it was just a passing thought.

Cheers, John

No, it still would not regulate with just any ole' ammo. The great thing about double rifles (except for those who have adjustable barrels such as Merkel 141 or the Valmets) is that they have been fine tuned to shoot accurately with a known ammo or near equivalent. For some folks, that rules a double out for them, because they want to utilize whatever ammo they have a fancy for. But for those of us enamored with DR's, half the fun is finding the perfect load for the rifle.

Mike

I was just thinking that perhaps it was the side stresses along the central rib that was causing it.

Cheers, John

Phatman

Think of it in terms of "bullet barrel time" ad where the bullet leaves the barrel at a certain point in the process of recoiling.

That is why with some guns, changing the grip o the barrels can affect the recoiling and therefor how it shoots.

.

Hi Phatman,

No expert here but I can tell you that is a good idea but only a very small part of the situation. With a ribless double, you could regulate with one load and still not get another one to perform well.

You could check with those who build doubles on shotgun actions and ask them if they regulated with one load, then try another while the ribs were off...I think they would be happy to share their experience and opinions on the matter.

There seems to be a bit of black magic thrown into the regulating process.

AKMAtt
Matt

quote:

Originally posted by mdstewart:
No, it still would not regulate with just any ole' ammo. The great thing about double rifles (except for those who have adjustable barrels such as Merkel 141 or the Valmets) is that they have been fine tuned to shoot accurately with a known ammo or near equivalent. Mike

Don't forget those finely crafted Russian Baikals! I think the triggers on mine were honed with a brick. Still, I got it stupid cheap because whoever owned it before me could not get it to regulate vertically. With a little patience (and handfull of feeler gauges) I got it spot on at 100 meters. Can't do that with a Sabatti...

quote:

Originally posted by Phatman:
Hello All,
I was thinking the other day about how double rifles are regulated for a specific load and that any other load will not work as well.

Do you think this might be because of the solid ribs holding the barrels together?
If the rib was gone for all but the first and last 4 inches, do you think the regulation would be more forgiving to loads of different power levels?

Forgive me if this is to simplistic, it was just a passing thought.

Cheers, John

John,A double rifle can be made to shoot several different loads but it is not easy! The eaisest thing is the regulating a double rifle to a known load at the factory. The hard part is finding a load that will shoot to the regulation that has been built into the rifle at the factory. That being said, to get the absolute best from any double rifle one needs to handload, and once found the rifle will shoot properly with that load. What is needed is a pair of loads that will shoot to reguation with a soft and another with a solid to the same basic composite group. This takes some experamenting but once found you can take on just about anything on Earth with most of the chamberings that come in double rifles.

In the USA we tend to read the gun rag guys, as if we were reading from scripture, and anything they say has to be correct, simply because they said it. Again we are being misled, in some cases because the writher is too lazy to do the research, but mostly because they are printing opinion that the think is true. We all do that on occasion, it is only human because nobody knows everything. Still when it is put into print, by a self- proclaimed expert (some say this is what I am doing here but what I tell you can be verified quite easily) for the public to read it can lead the reader in the wrong direction.

The double rifle is a complex type of rifle to build and make shoot properly. No formula, or jig can be made to get away from the tedious work of fitting these things so they work properly. All types of things have been tried to make regulating the barrels easy, and nothing has worked. Most think if you simply make the barrel exactly parallel then the rifle will shoot side by side! So why not simply use a laser to align the barrels and save hours, and hours, plus several rounds of very expensive ammo to regulate the barrels? The reason is, it doesn’t work.

The barrels have to be laid to not only converge, but to point as crossing, and low, compared to where you want the bullets to hit the target. The double rifle depends on the recoil arch of the rifle, and the speed of the bullet to shoot to where the sights are pointing when the trigger is pulled. IOW, if you place the barrels in a vice with the sights held dead on your target at the iron sight' regulated distance, then with an empty case, with no primer, in each barrel using the primer hole like a peep sight, look through each barrel. What you will see is, the right barrel will be pointing at a place that is low and on the leftof where the sights are aligned. The leftbarrel will be pointing to a place on the rightand low in relation to where the sights are aligned. This is necessary because of thing called barrel time. What that means is, when the trigger is pulled on the RIGHTbarrel, the rifle rises up and to the RIGHT while the bullet is traveling down that barrel, so that the barrel is pointing to the point the sights were when the trigger was pulled, and Vice-versa for the left barrel. So the double rifle depends on the recoil arch, and the bullet's speed down the tube, to be aligned when that bullet exits the barrel. This converging of the barrels can be done exactly the same with two rifles shooting the same cartridge and they will not shoot the same, so each rifle has to be regulated by it's own rules to work properly. This is one of the reasons even the cheapest double rifle requires over 800 to 1000 man hours of skilled labor to complete, hence the cost of manufacture. However when this is done properly no rifle in the world is more reliable for hunting anything from jackrabbit to elephant depending on the chambering.

More later if you want!............................

In that case a "Plinking" load is ill advised as there is no way for it to hit on the second shot.
Might explain why I've never seen a Double Rifle worn out. Neglected, abussed, but not worn out.

Thankyou Gentlemen,
John

Hey John,

Your last comment is a bit different and as you can see there is a lot going on when you have 2 barrels. Yes, you can have a dbl rifle regulated to a load. Can you make up a plinking load that regulates is the question I am seeing you leaning towards. Is that right? If so, the answer is yes. You can use the same powder charge in the same case with a projectile that weighs 75% of the regulated projectile weight and make it happen with just a bit of tweeking.


Cheers,

Matt

That is exactly what I was woundering about.
You see, my 9.3 bolt action is my constant companion in the woods.
I know it with out looking at it. I can operate it with out thinking about it, mainly because I have put thousands of rounds through it. Light plinking loads to hotter than factory, even paper patch have gone through it.
I cant see how you could do that with a double rifle if all you could shoot was the full power loads all the time.
There just had to be a way for you guys to practice with out getting your bodies beat up to bad.

Cheers, John

Not everybody uses 75% loads but it is useful if your Double will do it.

The other thing I have found is with 375 and 9.3, I have been able to get different bullet weights to shoot OK with these guns.

.

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:
Not everybody uses 75% loads but it is useful if your Double will do it.

The other thing I have found is with 375 and 9.3, I have been able to get different bullet weights to shoot OK with these guns.

.

Absolutely the 75% rule works on most double rifles with a little tweeking up or down just a little. As 500N says the 9.3X74R double rifles are pritty forgiving and like the old 375 H&H and flanged, in many cases will place bullets of different shapes, and weights in the same group well enough for hunting!

The doubles chambered for 9.3X74R, and 375 Flanged magnum are just about the best choice for a one double for North America, from coyote to grizz. Light to carry and most are good at longer range than larger chamberings, makeing them fine rifles for deer, caribou, Elk and Moose. I use my 9.3X74R double rifles for most of my hunting today, as at my age, and fixed income, I no longer get to Africa these days.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

Absolutely the 75% rule works on most double rifles with a little tweeking up or down just a little. As 500N says the 9.3X74R double rifles are pritty forgiving and like the old 375 H&H and flanged, in many cases will place bullets of different shapes, and weights in the same group well enough for hunting!

Mac

Has anyone worked out why the 375 Doubles do what you and I Say ?

I only have one 9.3 double but have 3 x 375 Doubles and I know 2 of them
do it (bullets of different shapes, and weights in the same group), I have yet to try the third one.

I also know that most of my 375 bolts can be tuned to shoot all bullet weights to the same POA / POI,
one of the reasons I like my W J Jeffrey 375H&H so much (plus it is dead accurate).


.

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

Absolutely the 75% rule works on most double rifles with a little tweeking up or down just a little. As 500N says the 9.3X74R double rifles are pritty forgiving and like the old 375 H&H and flanged, in many cases will place bullets of different shapes, and weights in the same group well enough for hunting!

Mac

Has anyone worked out why the 375 Doubles do what you and I Say ?

I only have one 9.3 double but have 3 x 375 Doubles and I know 2 of them
do it (bullets of different shapes, and weights in the same group), I have yet to try the third one.

I also know that most of my 375 bolts can be tuned to shoot all bullet weights to the same POA / POI,
one of the reasons I like my W J Jeffrey 375H&H so much (plus it is dead accurate).


.

500N I have no idea why it works the way it does with those two cartridges but it does! It seems they just are forgiving for some reason not known to me, and I doubt to anyone else!

I find that most double rifles, and single barreled rifle alike, so chambered, just seem to digest many different brands of factory ammo about the same. The 375 H&H belted mag is noted by most people as a one rifle for the world for that exact reason. The 9.3X57, and 74R seem to be almost as forgiving in my experience, but I have no idea why! I certainly love both chamberings! Like you I have three 375 H&H bolt rifles an one Ruger No1 and all get aired out on a regular basis! I wish I had a 375 Fl Mag double rifle as well. If I had to live with only one rifle it would likely be a 375H&H Mauser bolt rifle! However, I don't feel handicaped with a 9.3X74R S/S double rifle!

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