I'm just wondering if you have seen this penetration test before, and what you think of some of the results?

Penetration Test

DM

Have not seen this penetration test before, although interesting destruction on paper, wood, and bone I don't believe it gives much if any useful intel related to penetration on game in the field.

I agree, but it does give a pretty good comparison between different cartridges in the same medium...

DM

Check the velocities, though. They don't seem realistic for the rifles in which they were intended, like the 600 NE and 500 NE. Makes the comparison pretty meaningless for hunting applications.

A 600 NE at 2300+?????!!!!!...I'll bet that was fun.

Gary
DRSS
NRA Lifer
SCI
DSC

Shows the 500 Linebaugh, with a 500gr hard cast... outperformed the 500NE with a 570gr solid...and did it at half the velocity.

Looks like a lot of fiction here???

quote:

Originally posted by Nitrodave:
Shows the 500 Linebaugh, with a 500gr hard cast... outperformed the 500NE with a 570gr solid...and did it at half the velocity.

Looks like a lot of fiction here???

These tests are done at a seminar. There are lots of witnesses.
The 570gr. solid shot in the 500 NE tumbled which would cut down it's penetration depending on where it started to tumble. To bad they didn't include that info in the data.
Study michael458's penetration tests data in the Big Bore forum. There is a lot to be learned from his tests.

The problem with the "tests" are the material. In flesh, the high velocity solid will out penetrate. Newsprint, wet pack, etc, are materials that do not produce results similar to results achieved from real animals in either tests or during hunts.

RN solids perform well in game for good penetration. They do have a strong tendency to tumble. But in my experience, and as revealed in digging the bullets and following their path through big animals like buff and elephant, they tumble well along, after much penetration, after they have done their job and lost most velocity.

For like shape, like weight solid bullets, penetration is a function of energy - assmuning the bullet doesn't deform or come apart. Energy is derived from velocity.

A 500gr, .458" Woodleigh steel jacketed solid, for example, will penetrate deeper at 2200fps than at 2100fps, assuming it holds its shape...

Same for ALL other similar shape, similar weight bullets.

FN solids do out penetrate RN solids, all else the same.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
The problem with the "tests" are the material. In flesh, the high velocity solid will out penetrate. Newsprint, wet pack, etc, are materials that do not produce results similar to results achieved from real animals in either tests or during hunts.
JPK

+1

Tests that I have seen using ballistic gelatin instead of newsprint bear this observation out. Linebaugh, Taffin, Randy Garrett, and others have been peddling the "less velocity penetrates better" snake oil for some time.

quote:

FN solids do out penetrate RN solids, all else the same.

Any idea as to percentage of additional penetration? For example, the Hornady DGS vs. the Woodleigh RN solid.

quote:

Originally posted by Dark Continent:

Tests that I have seen using ballistic gelatin instead of newsprint bear this observation out. Linebaugh, Taffin, Randy Garrett, and others have been peddling the "less velocity penetrates better" snake oil for some time.

LESS velocity DOES penetrate deeper WITH SOME BULLETS, but with others it doesn't. Problem is, many folks don't realize that, and assume it works for all bullets.....and it doesn't.

DM

quote:

Originally posted by DM:

quote:

Originally posted by Dark Continent:

Tests that I have seen using ballistic gelatin instead of newsprint bear this observation out. Linebaugh, Taffin, Randy Garrett, and others have been peddling the "less velocity penetrates better" snake oil for some time.

LESS velocity DOES penetrate deeper WITH SOME BULLETS, but with others it doesn't. Problem is, many folks don't realize that, and assume it works for all bullets.....and it doesn't.

DM

Take two bullets that are the same, two of the same brand, the same model number, ie weight and diameter, etc.

Drive one at X velocity and the other at X plus Y fps. The faster one will penetrate deeper given the exact same shot. (So long as they do not break, bend or otherwise deform.) This is simple physics which cannot be altered and from which there is no escape.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

quote:

Originally posted by DM:

quote:

Originally posted by Dark Continent:

Tests that I have seen using ballistic gelatin instead of newsprint bear this observation out. Linebaugh, Taffin, Randy Garrett, and others have been peddling the "less velocity penetrates better" snake oil for some time.

LESS velocity DOES penetrate deeper WITH SOME BULLETS, but with others it doesn't. Problem is, many folks don't realize that, and assume it works for all bullets.....and it doesn't.

DM

Take two bullets that are the same, two of the same brand, the same model number, ie weight and diameter, etc.

Drive one at X velocity and the other at X plus Y fps. The faster one will penetrate deeper given the exact same shot. (So long as they do not break, bend or otherwise deform.) This is simple physics which cannot be altered and from which there is no escape.

JPK

Agreed, EXCEPT that many times at the higher velocity they DO break, bend or otherwise deform, and there lies the problem and difference.

DM

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana_Dave:

quote:

FN solids do out penetrate RN solids, all else the same.

Any idea as to percentage of additional penetration? For example, the Hornady DGS vs. the Woodleigh RN solid.

My experience shooting Woodleigh 500gr .458" steel jacketed solids @ 2145fps at the muzzle vs. North Fork 450gr .458" FN solids @ 2200fps at the muzzle reveals on order of 20% to 40% greater penetration for the North Fork FN solid for brain shots and body shots on elephants and on body shots on buff.

However, as great as the advantage is, I believe that Woodleigh steel jacketed solids remain the better choice for the first shot at bull elephants, where a brain shot is intended and where substantial bone is likely to be encountered.

When I elephant hunt, I load a 500gr Woodleigh RN solid in my right barrel and a 450gr North Fork FN in my left barrel, since the second shot is either an insurance shot or may be a shot in which all of the penetration that can be mustered is needed in the (unlikely?) event of a muffed brain shot!

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by DM:

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

quote:

Originally posted by DM:

quote:

Originally posted by Dark Continent:

Tests that I have seen using ballistic gelatin instead of newsprint bear this observation out. Linebaugh, Taffin, Randy Garrett, and others have been peddling the "less velocity penetrates better" snake oil for some time.

LESS velocity DOES penetrate deeper WITH SOME BULLETS, but with others it doesn't. Problem is, many folks don't realize that, and assume it works for all bullets.....and it doesn't.

DM

Take two bullets that are the same, two of the same brand, the same model number, ie weight and diameter, etc.

Drive one at X velocity and the other at X plus Y fps. The faster one will penetrate deeper given the exact same shot. (So long as they do not break, bend or otherwise deform.) This is simple physics which cannot be altered and from which there is no escape.

JPK

Agreed, EXCEPT that many times at the higher velocity they DO break, bend or otherwise deform, and there lies the problem and difference.

DM

Indeed! That is why bullet selection is so critical!