I recently tried to buy a nice used DR from an individual on Gunsinternational.

In his advertisement and emails to me, he raved about the DR's accuracy...."less than 1.5" @ 100yds with open sights and less than 1" with scope"

I said OK, I'll buy the DR...BUT, I want a reasonable time to inspect and shoot it.

I suggested that we find a gunsmith that he was comfortable with, ship the rifle and ammo to him, and I would only inspect and shoot the rifle in the company of the gunsmith. I would pay for the shipping,ammo, and gunsmith's time.

My $$(certified funds) to buy the DR would be held by the gunsmith. If the DR shot well, the $$ go to the buyer. If not, then I pay to have the DR shipped back.

Seller said noway and accused me of calling him a liar about the DR's accuracy...

Is asking for an "shooting inspection period" unreasonable?

AzGuy,

Kind of a sticky wicket you raise here.

Personally, I would never agree to such terms by a prospective buyer unless the buyer was willing to meet me at my range and then he could shoot to his heart's (and wallet's) content .

No two people have the same shooting technique which in large part determines the accuracy of a particular rifle/revolver. So it would seem such an exercise would be hit or miss (pardon the pun) at best.

Just out of curiosity, have you ever rec'd/given similar terms?

quote:

Originally posted by bigfats:
AzGuy,

Kind of a sticky wicket you raise here.

Personally, I would never agree to such terms by a prospective buyer unless the buyer was willing to meet me at my range and then he could shoot to his heart's (and wallet's) content .

No two people have the same shooting technique which in large part determines the accuracy of a particular rifle/revolver. So it would seem such an exercise would be hit or miss (pardon the pun) at best.

Just out of curiosity, have you ever rec'd/given similar terms?

Yes I have rec'd similar offer/terms.

I would offer similar terms.

Your idea about meetting/shooting FTF is the best possible solution.

Didn't work in this case...he lives in Washington and I'm in Arizona.

quote:

Is asking for an "shooting inspection period" unreasonable?

Not in the slightest.

quote:

Just out of curiosity, have you ever rec'd/given similar terms?

Every time I've ever bought a used double rifle. Never had it refused, and I see it done this way all the time. The last one I bought the rifle arrived without ammo. The seller contacted me and said not to worry about sending money until I received the ammo and fired it, and to send the rifle back if it didn't shoot to my satisfaction.

I would never make an offer on a used double rifle that wasn't contingent on a gunmaker's inspection and test firing it to check regulation and function. That's just the nature of double rifles, and honest, knowledgable DR people know that. This procedure is well enough established that I wouldn't trust a seller that had a problem with doing it that way. Just move on to the next rifle.
-------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

That all sounds good but I can just see some guy dropping the gun I'm trying to sell. I don't think I even know anyone that I would trust to do what you propose!

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
That all sounds good but I can just see some guy dropping the gun I'm trying to sell. I don't think I even know anyone that I would trust to do what you propose!

Bill!! I'm hurt!

465H&H

quote:
Originally posted by Will:
That all sounds good but I can just see some guy dropping the gun I'm trying to sell. I don't think I even know anyone that I would trust to do what you propose!



Bill!! I'm hurt!

yeah but bill would have a single trigger anyway
i don't think i would do it either, if for no other reason than i've seen damn few guys capable of shooting well enough with a double to get 1" groups at 100 even if the rifle is capable

With open sights I am just not sure of someone else's ability to shoot a rifle accurately, especially a high recoiling double. Even with a scope I see "hunters" sighting in their rifles at the range who can barely keep rounds on the paper at 100 yards. I have always furnished targets when I have claimed accuracy with firearms I have sold. Just my 2 cents.
peter.

Re: accuracy/individual shooting ability

Seller claimed 1.5"(100yds) with open sights...I couldn't do that with a 12lb benchrest gun in 223....the eyes just ain't what they used to be

But with a scoped rifle capable of "less than 1"(100yds)...even on a bad day I could get 2-3" groups...that is all I was looking for.

Just didn't want to drop a lot of $$, then go to the range and find that the rifle is really only capable of 6"-8" groups.

I recognize that some people will shoot some rifles better than other people can...just one of those things. I just wasn't willing to spend/lose thousands of dollars to find out: (1) that this particular rifle can't shoot or (2) I can't shoot this particular rifle.

The standard is a three day refusal/acceptance inspection period on any rifle bought that you have not seen, held, and/or shot!

The best way to do this for both parties is to send the rifle to JJ and have him inspect it, and check regulation. He can either send it on to you, or back to the seller! Double rifles cost too much to just take someone's word that you don't know! I know because I got stung myself exactly that way!

.........Handle it and shoot it or forget it!

Understand Azguy. I was not not knocking your ability to shoot!
Peter.

AZguy, I remember seeing that same ad...I thought claims of a group "less than 1 inch" were at 100 yards were pretty lofty. The suggestion to have the rifle sent to JJ at Champlin's is an excellent one....an inspection and trial by an expert that is neutral in the transaction.

I, too, would be leery of sending a DR to someone who may not ever have shot a DR (or and big-bore rifle) on the contingency of him being able to shoot it well.

I would question the accuracy of the rifle if the seller claims 1" at 100 yds. It's really hard to shoot that well off a standing bench or even sitting on a bench with the forend rested on your hand.

I've shot 1" groups out of a double rifle but I broke all the rules to do it.

quote:

I've shot 1" groups out of a double rifle but I broke all the rules to do it.

AKshooter,

Be a sport and share your secret.....please.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
That all sounds good but I can just see some guy dropping the gun I'm trying to sell. I don't think I even know anyone that I would trust to do what you propose!

You have hurt my little feelings
I agree with Mac
Bill

Most sellers will agree to a gunsmith's inspection, but will draw the line at firing the gun or taking a screwdriver to it. Most of the time, in the case of a DR, a seller will provide a test target, and some of the time, he will also provide the appropriate ammo (or at least the regulation load info). Sometimes, he will OK a regulation check by a known expert. Hardly ever, by a novice (i.e. the buyer, unless that person is knowledgeable).

With modern semi-production guns, this is less of a concern as the likelihood that they have gone "off" is low, esp. if they have the original buttplate/pad. With a modern gun, you have to watch out for guns that were regulated with a scope. They may not shoot without the same scope they were regulated with, and will probably not shoot well without a scope. In any event, the risk of regulation problems with a modern gun that's as it left the factory, is slight. If it won't shoot, it's most likely because you are using the wrong ammo.

Smaller caliber doubles, eg a 375 Express, are very sensitive to ammo. I have found that 1/2 grain of powder (no other change) can make a big difference on the target. The larger cases seem to be less finicky.

It's more likely that you will experience a problem with vintage guns, esp those that have been "restored". Restocking, adding a pad, or relaying ribs will mess up the regulation.

I have purchased over 50 DRs and not one has been purchased with a "range" inspection privilege. Most of them were spot on with the ammo provided/specified; some took some fiddling with loads to get them to shoot; and one was hopelessly out of regulation and had to be reregulated. It had been restored including replacement of the rib.

A claim of 1 1/2" accuracy with iron sights at 100 is bogus. Yes, it can be done but with two shots only and then it's not repeatable, it's a fluke. You can't hold that well with express sights. Any DR that will put 6 shots into 3" at 100 with irons is exceptional. 4" is acceptable. 5" is workable. 6" or more is not OK. If the problem is two distinct subgroupings, then you can usually bring them together by fiddling with the bullet weight or powder charge, and if that doesn't work, go to a different powder and start over. If all else fails, get the gun regulated for the ammo you plan to use. If the problem is accuracy rather than regulation, then slug the bore and check the twist, and adjust the bullet accordingly.

I have bought a lot of double rifles in the last 40+ years. I cannot recall a single one that I didn't shoot before the deal was done except for 3 .600 Nitros. However, I had the right to shoot them before I said the deal was closed. I wanted them badly, I guess and figured if there was a regulation problem I would get it solved.

I don't think I would deal if someone told me I could not fire a used rifle or shotgun.

quote:

quote:
AKshooter,

Be a sport and share your secret.....please.

No secret that was shot from a sand bag. It's not a true group from a double rifle

This group dos'nt repersent regulation at all since it was fired from only the right barrel.

Many double rifles will do this just let the barrel cool for about 15 min between shots.

My concern is that this is how the seller was getting those kind of groups if he truly was gettng them.

Heres a real group at fifty yards while I was wrking up the regulation load. You see the load listed is 68 gr. I finnally settled on 66.4 gr. and the they now shoot perfect 1.5 apart right on the right side and vice versa instead of crossing.

Any idea of what JJ would charge for a DR inspection and regulation test?

And how long (days/weeks/months) would JJ have to have the DR?

quote:

Originally posted by AzGuy:
Any idea of what JJ would charge for a DR inspection and regulation test?

And how long (days/weeks/months) would JJ have to have the DR?

Pull up the Champlin's website for the number, and give JJ a call and ask him.

Not long and the seller ought to allow extra time beyond three days for the evaluation by JJ or another competent gunmaker/expert.

In my own case, where I relied on JJ's inspection and shooting to accomodate the seller's reasonable concern that I wasn't an expert on DR's or on shooting them, JJ inpected the rifle and shot it before it was sent to me for my final acceptance or rejection.

He gave me his evaluation, which I shared with the seller, and my final inspection was for confirmation that I wanted that rifle and liked its feel, balance, looks, etc, and not that the rifle was in fine nick and/or shooting well. BTW, the agreement allowed me to shoot the rifle, but since JJ had already shot it and eveluated the regulation, it wasn't an issue with either me or the seller and I actually confirmed the purchase of the rifle prior to shooting it.

Other rifles I have shot prior to acceptance since it was convenient to do so because of locations and once I skipped an evaluation by a qualified expert because of the rifle's vintage and because the value of the rifle wasn't so high that it was a serious concern to me.

JPK

Option B:

talk to the maker. The 470 NE Searcy I am buying; I called Butch with the serial number and he assured me the rifle was in very sound mechanical condition. It had been back to his shop recently and been gone thru thoroughly.
Good enough for this cowboy.

Rich

Another thumbs up for JJ. He's saved me from making more than one mistake.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Option B:

talk to the maker. The 470 NE Searcy I am buying; I called Butch with the serial number and he assured me the rifle was in very sound mechanical condition. It had been back to his shop recently and been gone thru thoroughly.
Good enough for this cowboy.

Rich

Take it from me-don't use option B. About four years ago I was shopping for my first double rifle an I found a Searcy .470 on GunsAmerica.com. The rifle was almost new with beautiful upgraded wood. The seller said he decided his eyes were not good enough for open sights so he bought scoped bolt action and was selling this gun. I was afraid to send a big check to a stranger. In the course of our discussions it turned out he lived in CA about 75 miles from Searcy's shop and had shot the gun several times at the range with Butch. I proposed Butch inspect the rifle and act as escrow agent. The seller agreeded so I called Butch and he agreed to a $75 fee. I sent Butch a check and the seller delivered the rifle to Butch. Butch emailed that the rifle was like new so I sent the seller a large check. When the check was received the rifle was sent to my FFL. They opened the box in my presence. It was beautiful and I was thrilled and ready to take it home. The counterman however suggested their gunsmith look at it and called him from the back room. He found a small crack in the stock at the tang, the stock was loose, and said the barrels were off face. Again this was my first double. Once he mentioned it even a rookie like me could feel the looseness in the action and see the stock flex when a little pressure was applied. I called Butch and he admitted that he never even looked at it since it was only a few months old and he thought he knew its condition. Butch and the seller tried to convince me that Butch would take care of fixing both problems but I did not want a problem gun. I sent the gun back directly to Butch and eventually did get my money back although the seller was not happy to send it.

When I was considering buying my first DR, I got on the plane and went to look at it. Plane tickets are cheap compared to double rifles.

I bought it but still got stung. After I got it home, I found it had no firing pins.

That's when I found out about JJ. I'm such a dork!

Thanks for sharing that one!

I almost flew to the Pacific NW from New England to look at a pair of double shotguns and discovered, just in time that the guy didn't own them.

Oxon

quote:

Originally posted by goshoot:

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Option B:

talk to the maker. The 470 NE Searcy I am buying; I called Butch with the serial number and he assured me the rifle was in very sound mechanical condition. It had been back to his shop recently and been gone thru thoroughly.
Good enough for this cowboy.

Rich

Take it from me-don't use option B. About four years ago I was shopping for my first double rifle an I found a Searcy .470 on GunsAmerica.com. The rifle was almost new with beautiful upgraded wood. The seller said he decided his eyes were not good enough for open sights so he bought scoped bolt action and was selling this gun. I was afraid to send a big check to a stranger. In the course of our discussions it turned out he lived in CA about 75 miles from Searcy's shop and had shot the gun several times at the range with Butch. I proposed Butch inspect the rifle and act as escrow agent. The seller agreeded so I called Butch and he agreed to a $75 fee. I sent Butch a check and the seller delivered the rifle to Butch. Butch emailed that the rifle was like new so I sent the seller a large check. When the check was received the rifle was sent to my FFL. They opened the box in my presence. It was beautiful and I was thrilled and ready to take it home. The counterman however suggested their gunsmith look at it and called him from the back room. He found a small crack in the stock at the tang, the stock was loose, and said the barrels were off face. Again this was my first double. Once he mentioned it even a rookie like me could feel the looseness in the action and see the stock flex when a little pressure was applied. I called Butch and he admitted that he never even looked at it since it was only a few months old and he thought he knew its condition. Butch and the seller tried to convince me that Butch would take care of fixing both problems but I did not want a problem gun. I sent the gun back directly to Butch and eventually did get my money back although the seller was not happy to send it.

Ouch!!! that's scary. I've seen two Searcys that had cracked stocks. Both were cracked right behind the floor plate. Both these actions had an odd cut out in the metal that must have created stress on the wood in that area.

One of them was a plain 577 that was listed for sale on this site last May. When the pictures were blown up the crack could be plainly seen. I don't think Searcy uses this feature any longer for good reason.

Best advice is to send the gun of to JJ and go with his recomendation.

A good deal often turns out to be a nightmare. If someone has a lemon he will be happy to give you a good deal on it.

I for one would never buy a double that I couldn't shoot unless it came from someone like Champlins and they vouched for it.

465H&H

quote:

Just out of curiosity, have you ever rec'd/given similar terms?

Champlin Firearms has always done it that way with double rifles. They're double rifle specialists and understand why it's necessary. Far better to deal with reputable, knowledgable dealers when buying double rifles so that you know what you're getting and avoid the "if you get fingerprints on it you've bought it" crowd that don't want you to know.
-------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

I was at safari club convention in Reno one year when I found a Ferlach .375 double that I thought was pefect for me.

I did'nt shoot the gun but after handeling I was very happy with it so I wrote a check and Called my FFL friend and got a copy of his license on the way before I ever left the booth where the dobule was. He also had a .375 flannged that a friend bought although nether of us knew it at the time.

Long story short The guns were never sent and he filed bankrupsy right after he got home from the show. It took a long time for me to get any (not all) of my money back from his lawer. My friend was a little more aggressive and I think he got all back but it took awhile.

Since we are speaking of JJ here.....I took delivery of a Chapius 470 earlier this week from JJ. As I was leaving the shop he met me with a box containing RCBS 470 dies, 60 rounds of once fired Federal brass and a box of Woodleigh mixed softs/solids. What a guy!!

Recognizing on the front end that it is almost a certianty that everyone posting here is more experienced with DG's than am I, I have been studying hard on this for some months. Here are two things that I have concluded:

1. Insofar as used double rifles (or shotguns, for that matter) are concerned, the correct answer to any thorny question is "Champlin."
2. There a A WHOLE GREAT HELL OF A LOT of varying opinions regarding Searcy build quality and engineering, but few if any disputes about Mr. Searcy's customer service.

So far, that's all I know for sure (except for the fact that I can't afford a new bespoke H&H).

quote:

Originally posted by mauser93:
2. There a A WHOLE GREAT HELL OF A LOT of varying opinions regarding Searcy build quality and engineering, but few if any disputes about Mr. Searcy's customer service.

The reason you don't hear much about other makers customer service is their guns, unlike Searcy's are rarely sent back because of problems.

quote:

Originally posted by goshoot:

quote:

Originally posted by mauser93:
2. There a A WHOLE GREAT HELL OF A LOT of varying opinions regarding Searcy build quality and engineering, but few if any disputes about Mr. Searcy's customer service.

The reason you don't hear much about other makers customer service is their guns, unlike Searcy's are rarely sent back because of problems.

Would you like to provide some data to support that statement?

465H&H