Mike:
Nice pic of you in the turban. Why didn't you wear it on our Australian hunt last June?

I hope I didn't embarrass you with my .600 Wilkes.

Cal

Nah that was 'shot-his-wad'!

The Hartmann and Weiss was an attractive double at the SCI show.If one is looking for something refined this is it.I did not shoulder it or open the action.I opened the action and looked down the bore of a Searcy and my experience with rifles caused some green lights to go off.I am not sure this would be the case with any other rifle whatever the price.

So? How many english or other DR's have or are residing in your safe to qualify you to make these outlandish statements?

quote:

Reply

I have a feel for rifles.I handle them everyday and shoot every week-actively not passively.I will continue to do so forever.

So? Is your answer
0?
1?
2?
3?
4?
5???

More???

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I opened the action and looked down the bore of a Searcy and my experience with rifles caused some green lights to go off.I am not sure this would be the case with any other rifle whatever the price.

Did you feel a thrill going up your leg? If so, it could be that Butch reminded you of Obama. This would be very disturbing and could require immediate medical attention.

More than likely those green ights were a sort of flashback due to drug usage in the 60's!

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Brooks:
More than likely those green ights were a sort of flashback due to drug usage in the 60's!

you guys are cracking me up! beating this guy like a red headed stepchild.

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
Mike and DD:
Do you know of a market where I can dump my oxidized, eroded, worn out and dull 8-bores, 4-bore, .600, .500, .450, and .450-400? Throw in my Scott and Watson shotguns for good measure. I realize now what crap I have been collecting, shooting, and hunting with over the years and, before the value hits zero, what to get at least something out of them to upgrade to a Sabatti, Heym, or Merkel, (Bikal, too), and maybe a matched pair of SKSs (in oak and leather, of course). I'm also starting to get an eye for the mass produced stainless, synthetic, braked bolt rifles. Fluted barrel, of course.
Your help is appreciated.
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Metal and wood fit and finish is far superior to most modern doubles. The English had stock design down to an art in terms of controlling recoil, feeling good from a handling and pointability perspective and functionality. It is no accident that companies like Heym are now going back and designing and manufacturing English-like doubles. The intangible is that you are holding and hunting with a brand, and in many cases a specific rifle, with a rich and storied past. You are literally holding a piece of history in your hands, albeit a piece of history that is completely functional on par with any modern rifle. As MasterCard would say, that latter point is Priceless.

Mike and Cal are spot on concerning the vintage English rifles. I'm just now starting to make a foray into vintage guns. Purchased an original Rigby in 275 at SCI. There is no doubt that shouldering one of the English vintage guns just feels different. For me, appreciating the patina of the older guns was a bit of an acquired taste, but then again, so was the splinter over the beavertail. Seems the more one learns about doubles, the more appeal the old guns have. As Mike stated, the history behind the rifles are interesting and as Cal stated, especially with double rifles, the design seems to have been perfected 100 years ago with only minor changes.

I do think a new-be (and I include myself in that category with vintage guns) can greatly benefit from the advice of those in the know to avoid unforeseen problems, as they can and do exist with certain pieces, but purchasing a vintage English rifle is a great move from an investment standpoint when compared to a new gun. Don't get me wrong, I love the new guns as well, but they don't have the same cool factor. Not by a long shot, or should I say, not by a double shot!!

I think Vintage doubles would be and are great, for those of you who are experienced enough to pick out the good from not so good. For a guy like me who doesn't have the experience it is way to much money to gamble on IMO. Maybe some day I will have the experience or opportunity to handle enough vintage doubles to make an educated decision. Until then my money has to go on a sure thing. Something that I can understand and perhaps have some sort of leverage on if it dose not work. From my experience handling double rifles this year at SCI I really liked the Searcy's, for allot of reasons.

George,

If you'll permit, I'd like to offer a bit of sincere advice regarding your entry into the world of double rifles. If you don't care to head it, then so be it but I'm offering this sincerely.

Regardless of your opinions and knowledge of bolt guns, you need to set most of what you know or think you know aside with doubles. They react, are constructed, and perform much differently than a single barreled rifle does. In fact, there are so many differences, that you can't possibly hope to become an expert on them in a short timeframe. You'll find little nuances about them for years to come.

My advice, since a DR is such an expensive proposition, is to put your ego aside, open your ears and mind, and listen to guys like Mike Jines, Cal Pappas, Mac, and many of the others that I don't want to continue naming as I'm sure to forget many knowledgable DR shooters. Without accepting the input of the DR experts here on AR, you will likely not become a fan of your new double rifle. You will probably have issues with it in one way or another that are not problems with the gun, but rather your technique of shooting it, ammunition regulation, or simply expectations of how you think it should perform. For example, don't expect to have both barrels shoot to an inch group at 100 yards or so. You may run into problems if you decide to mount an optical sight, what happens if you get water into the action, problems with tightness when new, and so on. There really is a lot to learn and you'll be enriched for the experience if you open yourself to learning about them and put some of the less accepted concepts you seem to hold aside.

I hope you enjoy your new gun and wish you success with it.

Although over $15000, I do like this one;
http://www.gunsinternational.c...cfm?gun_id=100131521

A new rifles advantage is that it can have a detachable scope added quite easily.

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:
Although over $15000, I do like this one;
http://www.gunsinternational.c...cfm?gun_id=100131521

A new rifles advantage is that it can have a detachable scope added quite easily.

Yes....they have a pretty nice Gibbs .450/400 3.25" on their website as well. Certainly not in the price range though.....not that Schwandt ever gave anything away.....

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
George,

If you'll permit, I'd like to offer a bit of sincere advice regarding your entry into the world of double rifles. If you don't care to head it, then so be it but I'm offering this sincerely.

Regardless of your opinions and knowledge of bolt guns, you need to set most of what you know or think you know aside with doubles. They react, are constructed, and perform much differently than a single barreled rifle does. In fact, there are so many differences, that you can't possibly hope to become an expert on them in a short timeframe. You'll find little nuances about them for years to come.

My advice, since a DR is such an expensive proposition, is to put your ego aside, open your ears and mind, and listen to guys like Mike Jines, Cal Pappas, Mac, and many of the others that I don't want to continue naming as I'm sure to forget many knowledgable DR shooters. Without accepting the input of the DR experts here on AR, you will likely not become a fan of your new double rifle. You will probably have issues with it in one way or another that are not problems with the gun, but rather your technique of shooting it, ammunition regulation, or simply expectations of how you think it should perform. For example, don't expect to have both barrels shoot to an inch group at 100 yards or so. You may run into problems if you decide to mount an optical sight, what happens if you get water into the action, problems with tightness when new, and so on. There really is a lot to learn and you'll be enriched for the experience if you open yourself to learning about them and put some of the less accepted concepts you seem to hold aside.

I hope you enjoy your new gun and wish you success with it.

Thanks Todd!

quote:

Originally posted by Double BC:
For a guy like me who doesn't have the experience it is way to much money to gamble on IMO . . . Until then my money has to go on a sure thing.

I hear you, I am one of those guys that does not have the experience with these rifles either in order to be a truly informed buyer. There are some folks on this site that really do know a lot about English doubles, their history, how they are put together, how to evaluate one, etc. Tony Black, Jim Gallagher, Mark Cash to name a few. That is why I think it is important to do one of two things when it comes to purchasing vintage doubles. One, deal with someone established in the business and who knows what they are doing or someone that you know and trust as the seller. I have purchased my English doubles from George Caswell at Champlins. George knows his double rifles and in my dealings with him has always been a straight shooter. If I was buying from an individual, I would only buy from someone I know. For example, Mike Burke is selling his Boswell .450/.400. I would have no reservations buying that rifle from Mike because I know he is honest and forthright and if there is any problem, Mike is going to be upfront about it. Two, get the rifle checked out by someone that can give you an evaluation of a vintage double. Two names come to mind for this, but I am sure there are others. The first is JJ Perodeau with Champlin. The second is Dustin Mounts in Houston. JJ flat knows double rifles and Dustin is Purdy's gunsmith here in the US. Whatever you pay JJ or Dustin to do an evaluation will be money well spent to either avoid a problem down the line or to negotiate an appropriate price adjustment with the seller to allow you to fix any issues.

[Edited: One further note, do not for a second believe that purchasing a new rifle is a "sure thing". I had a friend who purchased a new double rifle in .500 NE. It was an ejector rifle. After a minimal amount of shooting, it stopped ejecting. He took the rifle into Dustin. Dustin discovered a number of problems that the rifle had been delivered with. So there is really no such thing as a sure thing when it comes to double rifles.]

Mike,
very good advice

Hunter 54:

You and I are in the same canoe. I acquired my first double about five years ago; a Antonio Zoli side by side in 9.3x74R. The factory target showed two bullet holes touching and shot at 100m. Five years later I am still trying to find a regulated load for this rifle. The point is, don't believe everything you see or hear.

I was fortunate enough to pick up a Merkel 141E in 9.3x74R a year after the Antonio Zoli. I found the load quickly and with the self regulating barrels, had it shooting one inch groups at 50 metres all day long.

However, having shot only bolts for most of my life, shooting a double rifle is a whole new ball game. Don't expect to pick it up and master the art, yes it is an art, of shooting a double rifle over night. You will have to practice and shoot a lot of ammo before you become in tune with the rifle. I am on year three with the Merkel and I think I am getting the hang of it.

My point is, don't go looking for your "pefect" double first time out. I payed $5000.00 for my brand new Merkel and it was a great choice to cut my teeth on. I would have been a fool and very disappointed if I were to have bought my dream double first off.

Think about messing around with an entry gun rather than going straight to the top.

As well, if you are looking for somthing unique, you might consider Bailey Bradshaw and his falling block double rifles. Check out his website. I believe his entry level guns in your calibre start at $12,500.

Best of luck and good hunting.

Kind regards,

Carpediem

I would recommend you take a look at the Heym PH.

The new model has some border engraving and I think it looks really good.

And they shoot great as well.