I've got my head around paying 23-25k for a heym that is custom to me with engraving.

Then I started wondering what the next price break is.....for a high quality new/lightly used double.

I've seen a WR that is lightly used for 85k, is the step up from a nice heym about that much?

Curious as to how much more I'd have to spend to go up a level or two?

I don't want to buy an older rifle because I'm not experienced enough to buy right and whatever I get I really want to know that function is not a question.

Appreciate any insights.

For me it is not worth the extremely high cost because most of it is all in the jewelry-like finishing.For 25G If I were looking at Heyms I would try and get two PH models.

10:
In my opinion, vintage rifles have the bugs worked out of them over the decades and I would trust their function more than a new rifle. There are plenty of gents here on AR who can assist you in the purchase of a vintage rifle and my book, The Double Rifle Primer has a chapter devoted on how to buy a vintage rifle. They work more smoothly as they have been broken in, i.e. top lever, hinge pin, etc.

As to price, well, buy a new car and the price goes down as soon as you drive it home. Buy a vintage Corvette and it's an investment as the prices always will increase. New doubles, generally, will not appreciate in value as a potential buyer can order a new one (like you did) as they are readily available. Order a new Holland for 200K and then try to sell it--you'll see. Any new rifle can be bought whereas there are only so many of the vintage ones out there. Hell, I'm just a retired school teacher and there are millionaires out there who would like a vintage 4-bore or .600 but they don't have them as there were only so many made. I treasure mine and will name my price when it is time to sell (to donate the proceeds to the Hillary campaign--NOT!).

Plus, the older doubles have workmanship that is hand work, not machine work, a better wood to metal fit (no proud wood with the lame excuse, "we left it oversize to accommodate a later refinishing," and a (possible) chance of a wonderful history. (I keep a file on my computer of wood to metal fit photos and am disgusted of the new rifles, in all price ranges, where the manufacturers can't seem to get it right. Or, purposefully don't to save a dollar).

That said, if you are set on buying a new rifle, the Verney-Caron doubles are the best bang for the buck out there in my humble opinion.

Just my two cents.
Good luck at what ever you do.
Cheers,
Cal

I bought my first double from George Caswell about 25 years ago. He told me that owning a London double was like having a bank CD--it will gain value every year. That has proven to be true. The double I paid 6K for goes for about three times that in todays market.

I should add...we were speaking of pre-WW2 London doubles. My third, and current double, is a Chapuis 470. I can't afford to take my own advise anymore.

Markets change and there is no guarantees that the present value will hold.Your rifle could go back down to what you paid.Twenty five years is not that long ago and up until then it was only worth 6 thousand.

I can tell Cal Pappas has never stocked anything! Any chump with a sanding block can make wood flush.

First, to leave wood proud of the metal an even amount around the entire action takes added time and care over just making it flush. Some but not all wood will shrink over a long period of time, plus having a little excess does allow you refinishing leeway...as lame as that sounds.

What you don't want to see is wood that isn't proud a consistent amount.

Cal also forgot to mention all the 100yr old guns with wood that is below the metal, a real eye sore. In fact those guns probably outnumber the good guns.

Aaron:
I apologize if I struck a nerve. You are correct in that I haven ever stocked anything. I don't even turn the screws on my doubles. My point was modern manufactures seem to take turns to save time and money. I would love to post here the pics I have saved of poor wood to metal fit but many were taken from AR, some recently, and I have no desire to criticize personally. I've owned a fair amount of vintage doubles and seen many more and the wood to metal fit is absolutely outstanding. Yes, a few have shrunk over time, but the majority are perfect. It is the same with metal fit. On many of my doubles if a grain of unburnt powder gets into the action it won't close. This workmanship is still done today by the finest makers in the UK and many individual gunsmiths around the US and UK and Europe, but my personal observation is the quality of work has lessened over the decades. It is not the fault of the makers, it is the fault of the buying public who accept sub standard work as the norm. Just as a synthetic stock is cheaper to screw onto a bolt rifle than to make a fine walnut stock.
Cheers, mate.
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by 10generation:
I've got my head around paying 23-25k for a heym that is custom to me with engraving.

Then I started wondering what the next price break is.....for a high quality new/lightly used double.

I've seen a WR that is lightly used for 85k, is the step up from a nice heym about that much?

Curious as to how much more I'd have to spend to go up a level or two?

I don't want to buy an older rifle because I'm not experienced enough to buy right and whatever I get I really want to know that function is not a question.

Appreciate any insights.

My2c-
As to used English guns, have only owned about 20 of them, only 1 new one. some good, some not so much so.
George Caswell is a very good place to start if you are considering that path.

If you are buying new at your posted price, I would buy the Heym.
The various available artists and types of engraving Heym uses to engrave the guns are all excellent choices.

To move up to a specifically engraved new Westley will be above 2X to 3X and up from the figure you posted on the Heym.

Hello 10generation.

This link is to my post on the new Verney Carron that I purchased last year. Of all the new Double Rifles to choose from, I opted for a VC. IMHO, I believe VC is better quality metal to wood fit, finish, visually, and expecially Mechanically, and a "step-up" from the Heym. I'm a retired R&D Mechanical Design Engineer, and I marvel at their innovative patented "lock-up", which rivals that of a Bank Vault.

http://forums.accuratereloadin...481048312#8481048312

A good example is a lovely W. Locke and Co. 465 NItro Express Double Rifle - Built by Westley Richards for Locke on the Vintage Double web site
http://www.vintagedoubles.com/catalog/?sort=5
For 16,000 US

How about Sabatti?
Mine are awesome, look wise and shooting wise

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
This workmanship is still done today by the finest makers in the UK and many individual gunsmiths around the US and UK and Europe, but my personal observation is the quality of work has lessened over the decades. It is not the fault of the makers, it is the fault of the buying public who accept sub standard work as the norm. Just as a synthetic stock is cheaper to screw onto a bolt rifle than to make a fine walnut stock.

Cal, you danced around the reason, I believe unintentionally. It is a matter of cost and pricing. More people are willing to pay $5000 for a new double than are willing to pay $10,000, fewer still to pay $25,000, and even fewer still to pay $50,000 or more. Some people say that a $10,000 rifle is just as good as any $75,000 rifle because they both shoot the same bullet and kill equally well. But they fail to see the subtle, and sometimes not so subtle, differences that take hundreds of extra man-hours and add to the cost. Consider that a Timex will keep time but an Oyster Perpetual is timeless.

Most people (my wife) will never understand the price of a fine double. "How can ten pounds of wood and steel cost more than a new Lexus?" Maybe we are nuts but, as someone said, "it's fun to be crazy".

Ask her how much a nice piece fine of jewelry costs.

You could buy two new Lexus automobiles for what this one cost and it weighs 1/10 of the weight of a double rifle:

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
This workmanship is still done today by the finest makers in the UK and many individual gunsmiths around the US and UK and Europe, but my personal observation is the quality of work has lessened over the decades. It is not the fault of the makers, it is the fault of the buying public who accept sub standard work as the norm. Just as a synthetic stock is cheaper to screw onto a bolt rifle than to make a fine walnut stock.

Cal, you danced around the reason, I believe unintentionally. It is a matter of cost and pricing. More people are willing to pay $5000 for a new double than are willing to pay $10,000, fewer still to pay $25,000, and even fewer still to pay $50,000 or more. Some people say that a $10,000 rifle is just as good as any $75,000 rifle because they both shoot the same bullet and kill equally well. But they fail to see the subtle, and sometimes not so subtle, differences that take hundreds of extra man-hours and add to the cost. Consider that a Timex will keep time but an Oyster Perpetual is timeless.

Grenadier:
Thanks for your comments and I can't disagree with anything you wrote.
I have seen older doubles with proud metal that may be due to shrinkage over the century or (most likely) sanding my the inexperienced refinisher. But I can't bring myself to understand the finest craftsmen in the firearm world--those of the UK both today and in the Edwardian and Victorian years--"chumps" because they make a perfect wood to metal fit.
But, as Aaron said, I have never stocked anything and have zero experience in any gunsmithing field. But I do appreciate quality and over the years I have gravitated towards vintage English doubles as functional works of art. The engraving, fit, lines, balance, quality, all seem to mesh. Plus the history! But I also understand the folks from Tasco will say their optics are top quality and one does not need to buy German glass.
Just the observations of someone looking in, not part of the guild.
Cheers, all.
Cal

Thanks, Cal. I also do not think that just because a firearm is lower priced necessarily means it is poorly built, though some plainly are. I have an appreciation for many firearms that are much lower in cost then the big dollar offerings. They may not have the refinement in fit and finish, but as long as they fit and function well enough internally, and are not displeasing to the eye, they can be well worth their price. Both sorts of offerings have their place in the world of firearms.

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:
Thanks, Cal. I also do not think that just because a firearm is lower priced necessarily means it is poorly built, though some plainly are. I have an appreciation for many firearms that are much lower in cost then the big dollar offerings. They may not have the refinement in fit and finish, but as long as they fit and function well enough internally, and are not displeasing to the eye, they can be well worth their price. Both sorts of offerings have their place in the world of firearms.

I think the best example is the black powder express double rifles (and single shots) from the UK in the later 1800s. Amazing workmanship but priced below their true value due to market demand. I agree, there is something for everyone.
Cheers,
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by 7kongoni:
Most people (my wife) will never understand the price of a fine double. "How can ten pounds of wood and steel cost more than a new Lexus?" Maybe we are nuts but, as someone said, "it's fun to be crazy".

And in 10yrs that Lexus is "cheap fill"

http://www.gunbroker.com/Aucti....aspx?Item=546627626

I scour the ads for doubles and this one is the best deal in a vintage nitro express rifle anywhere.

quote:

Originally posted by Colin Masters:
http://www.gunbroker.com/Aucti....aspx?Item=546627626

I scour the ads for doubles and this one is the best deal in a vintage nitro express rifle anywhere.

Good looking gun, but says it has had OSR.
That will scare off just about everybody even at that price.
I wonder, in a gun such as this one, can restriking and reblacking the barrels eliminate any evidence of "overstressed rifling"?
Also, and this is a question for another topic entirely, can OSR be detected on the outside of a button rifled barrel? Maybe they are button rifled before any contouring is done so it is never observed?

quote:

Originally posted by Huvius:

quote:

Originally posted by Colin Masters:
http://www.gunbroker.com/Aucti....aspx?Item=546627626

I scour the ads for doubles and this one is the best deal in a vintage nitro express rifle anywhere.

Good looking gun, but says it has had OSR.
That will scare off just about everybody even at that price.
I wonder, in a gun such as this one, can restriking and reblacking the barrels eliminate any evidence of "overstressed rifling"?
Also, and this is a question for another topic entirely, can OSR be detected on the outside of a button rifled barrel? Maybe they are button rifled before any contouring is done so it is never observed?

This one strikes me as overpriced, but a nice double.

Hi gents:
Safety and accuracy is not an issue with this rifle. I have shot it and if I didn't already have the caliber I would consider this one. I have seen OSR prior in other rifles and this one is extremely mild--almost non existent. But, I understand the public's concern.
Cal

Cal -

I've seen rivels in shotgun barrels but never OSR in rifle barrels. I have yet to hear of rivels causing a burst barrel. I can't say they haven't but I've never heard of it. I have one gun that had minor rivelling but the walls were extra thick so I had them filed out and the barrel re-blacked. Have you heard of any instance of OSR causing a burst barrel?

No, I've never encountered burst barrels in person or hearing of it. However, one low life clown in South Carolina told me he was at a range and a gent was firing a .600 with mono bullets. He said he saw the shot and the lands of the rifling pushed out of the muzzle. Of course, no pics or any documentation.
Cal

quote:

...the lands of the rifling pushed out of the muzzle.

What does that mean?

PM Sent.

Is there any new info out there on OSR?
I remember a thread on it some time ago and maybe we should renew the discussion.
There are still questions in my head about it such as, if the OSR can be seen along the full length of the barrel, how is that even possible if the bullet presumably is engraved by the lands in the first inch or two of the bore? Unless the rifle has a tapered bore I can't see how this could happen.
Not meaning to high jack this thread of course.

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:

quote:

...the lands of the rifling pushed out of the muzzle.

What does that mean?

That's exactly what he said to me, the lands were pushed out of the muzzle by a mono metal bullet.
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by Huvius:
Is there any new info out there on OSR?
I remember a thread on it some time ago and maybe we should renew the discussion.
There are still questions in my head about it such as, if the OSR can be seen along the full length of the barrel, how is that even possible if the bullet presumably is engraved by the lands in the first inch or two of the bore? Unless the rifle has a tapered bore I can't see how this could happen.
Not meaning to high jack this thread of course.

Like Cal I've seen OSR in a couple of vintage doubles and tried to photograph it but it is hard to see and harder to photograph. The ones I've seen were in the last four or five inches where the barrel walls are the thinnest.

Having said that I will leave this to those who want to fight! I've been abused enough about this subject!

....................................................................BYE!

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:

That's exactly what he said to me, the lands were pushed out of the muzzle by a mono metal bullet.
Cal

Sounds like rectal prolapse.

Very tidy looking rifle - a lot of the metal surfaces have either been refreshed or have been maintained in pristine condition.

May be worth just adding new barrels!

Not and expert but just love the DR porn!

quote:

Originally posted by Colin Masters:
http://www.gunbroker.com/Aucti....aspx?Item=546627626

I scour the ads for doubles and this one is the best deal in a vintage nitro express rifle anywhere.

quote:

Like Cal I've seen OSR in a couple of vintage doubles and tried to photograph it but it is hard to see and harder to photograph. The ones I've seen were in the last four or five inches where the barrel walls are the thinnest.

I am sure there is a dial indicator with fine enough precision to measure this OSR if it exists.
Seeing what appears to be OSR could be something emerging on the surface such as differential heat.
Have any of the OSR victim rifles had their bores measured with pin gauges before or after the appearance on the outside?
My gut says that if it is in fact there, it must be measureable.

Now, back to the OP question, I wholeheartedly agree with Cal about the black powder express rifles of the late 19th Century. Unless you plan on going to Africa and hunting elephant, and even if you do in some cases, a .450 or bigger BPE rifle will be the most bang for your buck (pun intended...)
You would be well served by attending a few big shows and handling a lot of guns and even getting an opportunity to meet some owners at the range to shoot (I haven't met an owner of a double yet whom hasn't allowed another to shoot it) before you put your money down especially if it is a stretch financially to do it.

Another point which I see in many first time buyers is the allure of getting a big bore dangerous game rifle as your first double. We all fall prey to the romantic notion of owning these high energy stopping class rifles but shooting them well on a regular basis is another proposition entirely. That is probably another reason I personally prefer the BPE rifles - they are just so much more fun to shoot a lot as opposed to the full nitro guns and a .450 or .500 BPE rifle with the right bullets is more than adequate for any North American game.

As Huvius said, double owners welcome others to shoot their treasures. Remember, gents, May 7 is our Alaska double rifle shoot and all are welcome. Last year we has 50 fine doubles and all quests shot them. To be honest, I load my .600 and 8 and 4-bores down some so the inexperienced won't have the rifle fly out of their hands. We all have fun and the regulars chip in food and drink and after two hours of shooting I fire up the grill on the tailgate and we dine on burgers and dogs, side dishes and drink, and then we go back to shooting.

Sadly, some of the guests only want to shoot a .600 or 4-bore to feel the recoil and have bragging rights. Those folks don't even look at a .450 or .500 bpe or a .350 Rigby nitro double (we had three of them at the last shoot). But, that's ok and all are welcome.
Cheers,
Cal

Thanks guys - the perspective I can get on AR is priceless.

I'm actually reading Cal's book this evening and had just read the section on OSR.

In terms of caliber, I'm pretty fixed on a 450/400 3". I want something that I can shoot well and my primary target for the foreseeable future will be buffalo.

I've been looking on gunsinternational and very double gun site I can find to try and get a sense of the market. Lots to learn.

Thanks again.

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
10:
Just my two cents.
Good luck at what ever you do.
Cheers,
Cal

Cal's TWO CENTS is spot on with the value of classic Britt doubles increasing as long as you keep them! That is if they were not buggered when you get them.

What is left out of his assesment of the Britt doubles that were made just before the turn of the 20th century to between that great wars is when those rifles were 10 years old they were nothing more than a 10 year old used rifle, and had not gained value but were discounted as a new made used double rifle of today would be after ten years of use.

Having said that, when the better doubles of today are 10 years old and on the used gun market they too are discounted just like the Britt rifles where when they were 10 yrs old.

When the GOOD vintage Britt doubles are all in private collections, or are damaged and the best double rifles made today become the vintage double left on the market, they too, IMO, will command a primium as well, and the older they get the rarer they become on the market.

The difference is, the Vintage Britts are already in the premium catagory, and the new made ones sold today are just used guns. NOW, there is no doubt the vintage double rifle made at the turn of the 20th century were made by very skilled artisens all by hand, but make no mistake if they had had the technology available today certainly some of it would have been used. That tecnology is used today by the best makers of double rifles with the same names that are engraved on many of those vintage doubles that we all want to own.

None of this opinion is to denounce the value of the well cared for vintage double rifles from most countries where fine doubles were made in the old days not just the Britt doubles.

I truly love the old firearms of all types, and made in just about all contries, but some firearms that I own were bought to be used as a tool for the purpose they were made, and though some of the extensive HAND work that was found when that was the only way to do it is absent on the newer offerings, as long as they work properly, and with proper care they are worth their price and will serve for many years IMO!

.................................................................Food for thought!

Good Grief. The old OSR wives tale raises its ugly head once again. For anyone who practices critical thinking, pray tell WHAT it is about soldering two barrels together that would cause this phenomenon. You just never hear of OSR being an issue in bolt or other single barreled rifles. Not to mention that I had that Ruger M-77 in 338WM back in the 80's that had "striping" along the length of the barrel, from the factory, long before the first Barnes bullet was on the market.

Good point...especially from you! :-)

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
Cal's TWO CENTS is spot on with the value of classic Britt doubles increasing as long as you keep them!

This historically has been true but there are market conditions that can adversely effect any gun's value.

For example, if one was looking for a decent 8bore Holland and Holland in the last four years or so, $40K seemed to be where you would have to be. In fact, I was trying to get into one myself a couple years ago a little under that price but came up short.
Just this month, no less than four 8bore Holland rifles came on the market and all sold for less than $40K. Every one a better rifle than the one I was pining for.
All it takes is for one of the big collectors to decide to sell off or pass away and suddenly the rare and unobtainable is on the market in quantity that hasn't been seen since the '70s.
Big sell-offs can really hurt the values short term so you better buy what you like and plan on holding for a while.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Not to mention that I had that Ruger M-77 in 338WM back in the 80's that had "striping" along the length of the barrel, from the factory, long before the first Barnes bullet was on the market.

Todd you are correct the barber poll ridges around your Ruger had nothing to do with any old wives tale, or OSR either! They were pattern from hammer forging of the barrel that Ruger was too cheap to turn off completely!

........................