The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Double Rifles 470 NE / RL 19 & 22 / 500 TBBC SPGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| 470 NE / RL 19 & 22 / 500 TBBC SP | Login/Join |
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Hello, Everyone loves RL 15 for there 470 and a filler. The Alliant site lists 2 tested powders only. RL 19 & 22. RL 22 has the larger load (Higher load density) at 117 grains for 2,234 fps in a 24" barrel with Norma brass and Fed 215. Does not specify gun or test barrel. RL 19 is listed as 115 grains for 2,244 fps. Since published tested data is available I have 2 questions. Why the love affair with RL 15 & fillers ? Who has actual first hand use of RL 19 & 22 in the 470 NE, and how was it ? Thanks for your input and knowledge. Nitro450exp "Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall DRSS, BASA 470 Krieghoff, 45-70 inserts, 12 ga paradox, 20 ga DR Simson/Schimmel, 12 ga DR O/U Famars, 12 ga DR SXS Greener | ||
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My understanding is that 2150 FPS can be reached with notably less recoil than alternative loading options with a 500 grain pill. That has to do with using less than 90 grains of powder (RL 15) where most other alternatives require +100 gr of propellant. There may be additional reasons as well. I just went to handloads.com and compared a hypothetical situation between loads. 10.5 # rifle; 500 gr projectile and two different powder charges to calculate the different recoil. Achieve 2150 FPS 105 gr of powder; Recoil Impulse 6.65, Recoil velocity 20.34, Free recoil 67.45 89 gr of powder; Recoil impulse 6.35, Recoil velocity 19.45, Free recoil 61.8. I do not know how accurate these plug in programs are?? I might add that the load you mentioned above will yield the following results with a 10.5# rifle using this program. Recoil impulse; 7.05 Recoil velocity; 21.61 Free recoil 76.11 EZ | |||
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I have shot both rl 19 gave me some real good groups, rl22 felt like h4831,lots more muzzle blast and recoil. I think rl19 is about the same as h4350. My understanding is that rl 15 is not going to be temp sensitive were rl 19 and rl22 are. H4350 is not. I want try h4895, hodgen recomends it for light loads. JD DRSS 9.3X74 tika 512 9.3X74 SXS Merkel 140 in 470 Nitro | |||
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The 4831 loads seem to add a lot more recoil than 16 grs of powder should. I think 4831 is a double base powder and rl 15 is not. I been told double base powder do recoil more. JD DRSS 9.3X74 tika 512 9.3X74 SXS Merkel 140 in 470 Nitro | |||
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Hello, Does the risk of fillers not negate the reward ? I have no first hand usage of fillers, except fibre wads in a 12 ga brass cases, with slugs and ball over nitro powder. But not in high pressure rifle loadings. But whenever you hear of an OOOPS, one of the first questions are, were you using a filler ? I really need to shoot one of each an feel the recoil difference. I guess the real issue is, we cannot get the canister powder or primers used by Federal, there is no tested/published data for RL 15 and fillers (From bullet, powder or gun manufacturers ) So for me why risk it ! Thanks "Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall DRSS, BASA 470 Krieghoff, 45-70 inserts, 12 ga paradox, 20 ga DR Simson/Schimmel, 12 ga DR O/U Famars, 12 ga DR SXS Greener | |||
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Best to avoid RL-15 and fillers. The reduction in recoil is not that significant and does not outweigh the potential risks if the powder should work its way past the filler (it can happen, regardless of what the resident experts claim); incomplete ignition, ringed chambers, and even worse if hunting DG. From the Handloads.com recoil calculator: .470 NE 10 lb DR 500gr bullet with 89 gr RL-15 and 5 gr of filler Recoil Energy 66.72 ft-lbs with 106.0gr IMR-4831 Recoil Energy 71.21 ft-lbs With a .470 NE I cannot tell the difference between the two loads recoil wise and I have shot them both. RL-19 is extremely close to IMR-4831 in burn rate and should work very well, I would be interested in your results if you try it. | |||
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I just stayed at the Holiday Inn Express last night. | |||
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Well then, I guess maybe that makes you an expert. Doubles cost a lot a lot of money and I'm not taking any chances with mine to save a bit of recoil. Maybe you should go to a smaller rifle if yours is too much. No harm in that, lots of guys have problems with recoil and it's better to shoot something you are comfortable with and can handle rather than flinching the shot. Cheers, CR | |||
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Cane Rat, You are a silly rabbit or rat. I post on here for fun and try not to argue. In the two plus years I have been on AR there have been several know it alls like you that come here and insult members. The good thing is guys like you do not stay around for long. Reloder 15, 19, 22, Woodleighs, North Forks, Barnes, K-Guns, Boswells, California Rigby, I love them all. Use what you like, you even made me think about the potential issues of a filler. I try to learn something everyday even from members like you. Have a good day and try to learn some manners. And yes I have twisted off on here before in particular one time but in general I try to be either funny or polite. | |||
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Well let me see if I can add to the confusion or perhaps clear up some things for you. The main reason for using R15 is it most closely matches the burn rate and pressure curve of Cordite. This is important in older rifles. The number one reason is it is usually easier to get a rifle to shoot to regulation with R15 as it mimics the old Cordite loadings. The next reason is the pressure curve follows that of Cordite. You may have noted that on some older (nitro) rifles the barrels taper rapidly just a short way in front of the chambers. Slower powders have a pressure curve that extends further down the barrel. The outer reason is reduced recoil with R15 over some other powders, 4831 is one that comes to mind. Why put up with extra recoil if you don’t have to? When using filler to prevent problems just be sure all the air space is filled between the powder and bottom of the bullet. Where people run into problems is leaving a space. This causes the bullet to act like a barrel obstruction. R15 works best with a filler it is much more consistent. Try using a piece of foam backer rod cut just long enough to give firm compression or by wads from Kynock. I don’t think Kynock would be using foam wads and offering them for sale if they thought there would be a problem. Bill Member DSC,DRSS,NRA,TSRA A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way. -Mark Twain There ought to be one day - just one – when there is open season on Congressmen. ~Will Rogers~ | |||
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There have been many rounds fired with either pillow stuffing or foam and no problems noted. Foam plugs are easy and clean,(no white stuff to pick up at the range) I use a 505 case trimmed back behind the shoulder to cut out my foam plugs. I buy those floating pool rods the kids use from wall mart,cut to the right thickness then cut the plug with the sharpened 505 case . Make sure it is long enough and large enough in dia to compress. JD DRSS 9.3X74 tika 512 9.3X74 SXS Merkel 140 in 470 Nitro | |||
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+1  Dave DRSS Chapuis 9.3X74 Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL Krieghoff 500/.416 NE Krieghoff 500 NE "Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer" "If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition). | |||
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Cane Rat: I think Mike is pretty much right here and has probably forgotten more about loading for doubles than you will ever know. You are off to a bit of a rocky start but maybe we can get you pointed in the right direction. I'm thinking that any guy that has the good sense to buy a VC double can't be all bad! Yes, you are correct, IMR 4831 is a great powder but some guys prefer Reloder 15 with a filler, usually a Kyonch wad, for all the reasons Bill Conley sets forth in his post above. I use both. I just shot some IMR 4831 with some Barnes banded solids yesterday and I have some ammo loaded with Reloder 15 on my loading bench as we speak. However, if I was shooting a vintage gun, I would only use Reloder 15. You are shooting a .470 right? If you would like, I would be glad to send you a few Kynoch wads to try with some Reloder 15. With a 500 grain bullet, I would start at 86 or 87 grains and work up to 89 or so. Opinions are great. We all have them. Just try and be a little more respectful of the other guys. There is a wealth of knowledge to be gained here. When I first came on, I hadn't owned a double and thus, never had a chance to load for one. The guys here were patient and understanding (although Mac is a bit grumpy and Biebs give me all kinds os shit  ) but if you listen you will learn and everyone is always ready to help you out.Dave DRSS Chapuis 9.3X74 Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL Krieghoff 500/.416 NE Krieghoff 500 NE "Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer" "If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition). | |||
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Dave, I also like Blaser and the 500/416NE  | |||
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Now you're talking Mike! Dave DRSS Chapuis 9.3X74 Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL Krieghoff 500/.416 NE Krieghoff 500 NE "Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer" "If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition). | |||
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Mike, Since you like the Blaser and the 500/416 NE there is obviously no hope for you and you are beyond saving  .All, I shoot a K-gun, so modern construction and no taper or barrel/chamber anomolies, I hope. As I stated I will have to shoot 19, 22 and 15 and compare to see if the recoil is noticeable. I will throw in a 4831 load for comparison. Generally speaking if the recoil is not an issue I like to KISS. So testing not withstanding I will try to avoid fillers. Anyone else have experience with 19 and 22 ? Thanks All for the info and entertainment. Nitro "Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall DRSS, BASA 470 Krieghoff, 45-70 inserts, 12 ga paradox, 20 ga DR Simson/Schimmel, 12 ga DR O/U Famars, 12 ga DR SXS Greener | |||
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Dave, I've actually loaded for doubles and everything else quite a lot over the past 30 yrs or so. Thanks for the offer of the Kynoch plugs but I will kindly decline. I've tried all sorts of fillers in the past; foam plugs, dacron filler, etc and prefer not use them but would rather would go to a slower powder instead. Do appreciate the offer though, many thanks. | |||
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If I can help you in any way, let me know.Dave DRSS Chapuis 9.3X74 Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL Krieghoff 500/.416 NE Krieghoff 500 NE "Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer" "If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition). | |||
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One important point no fillers with 5744 ever!!!! JD DRSS 9.3X74 tika 512 9.3X74 SXS Merkel 140 in 470 Nitro | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Double Rifles 470 NE / RL 19 & 22 / 500 TBBC SP
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