I have a 450-400,3" comming soon and also have received 300 of Gerards .411 FN solids. Is anyone loading these in the double? I also have a barrel in 375 FL MG comming also and have a supply of 270 gr. FN solids for it also.

I have loaded GS customs for my 500/416, 416 Rigby and 375 H&H.
Peter.

I load GS Customs in the .500 NE for a double.

Their website states that FN solids and Hp bullets should not be crimped. They offer no explination. I always crimp boomers to prevent bullet set back. What's up?

If one loads for a double, the pressures with FN solids will be less than with conventional bullets of similar weight. Does one load up to the proof pressure or does one stay with the speed profile of the round? If the proof loading for the round is 16 tonnes then do you load to that pressure and accept that the bullets may be going faster than 2150??

I don't crimp. For doubles it is not necessary (in my opinion) as the rounds are in the chamber and there is no place for them to go. My reloading for doubles is to get the two barrels to shoot together, then I check the velocities. So far I have not found any significant difference between the velocities thus achieved, and the "desirable" velocity you mentioned.
Peter.

quote:

Originally posted by lb404:
Their website states that FN solids and Hp bullets should not be crimped. They offer no explination. I always crimp boomers to prevent bullet set back. What's up?

I crimp their bullets anyway. In a double, the rearward jerk of recoil can make your bullet slide forward in the case. Imagine firing 5 or 6 shots with the right barrel while the left barrel remains loaded but does not get fired.

The recoil rules are the same for doubles as well as for bolts. The bullet doesn't get battered by the front magazine wall during firing, but, it still can advance out of the brass with repeat firings. I have e-mailed Gerard to find out the logic of his reasoning.

quote:

Originally posted by lb404:
The recoil rules are the same for doubles as well as for bolts. The bullet doesn't get battered by the front magazine wall during firing, but, it still can advance out of the brass with repeat firings. I have e-mailed Gerard to find out the logic of his reasoning.

No, the recoil rules about bullet set back and recoil pull are not the same for doubles. I think I can guess at what part of the reasoning is.

Generally, the flanged nitro DR rounds have longer necks with a longer bearing surface on the bullet. As long as the neck is correctly resized for it's full length, bullet set back isn't possible. Also, as long as the correct size expander ball is used, recoil pull just doesn't happen. Keep in mind that doubles don't have anything like the camming powder of a bolt. An improperly executed taper crimp that wouldn't be a problem in a bolt rifle can prevent a round from chambering in a double.

Years ago, I encountered a recoil pull problem in a .470. After playing with it for a while, I was able to produce the same in a .450/.400. These rounds were loaded using the standard expander ball and were crimped. Sizing without the expander ball and seating the bullet without crimping cured the problem in both. The "standard" expander balls were simply too large. This is a uniform problem with large bore flanged nitro reloading dies, or at least it is with RCBS. If you're going to use the expander ball, turn it down or replace it with a smaller one.

For loading DR ammunition, I never crimp and never use an expander ball. Not long ago, I worked up loads for a double .500/.465. Cases were sized without the expander, and bullets were seating with no crimp. Once we had a final load, I marked one round and fired 10 rounds next to it, rotating the marked round into the off barrel for each shot. The bullet in the marked round didn't move at all. Crimping has little to do with uniformity either, but neck tension does. Extreme velocity spread was single digit in both barrels.

I've done it that way in a lot of doubles over the years, and the results are always the same. There just isn't a good reason to crimp DR ammunition. Just use the correct size expander ball, or none at all, don't crimp, and you'll have no problems.

I recently got a copy of Pierre van der Walt's "Big Bore Cartridge Load Data Collection" from BASA (Big Bore Association of Southern Africa), and was interested to see that he doesn't recommend crimping DR ammunition either, largely for the reasons given above.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Most of my dies over resize the brass in anticipation that the expander ball will open it up to near the correct diameter for accepting the bullet. That is a common problem and the reason for the bushing die concept that is the rage now. I have a set of dies from RCBS for the 500 Jeffery and it is a three die set. It uses a expander plug instead of the ball and I am able to polish it down until it was opening up the brass .002 for a correct neck wall tension.

How do you seat a bullet in a very tight case neck without belling it first???

quote:

How do you seat a bullet in a very tight case neck without belling it first?

Larger diameter bullets have a larger bevel on the base, which makes them easier to get started in the case-mouth when seating. Like seating a boat-tail 30-cal, for example. Also, the geometry of the larger case mouth (.450 and above), ie case-wall thickness as a function of the overall case-mouth diameter, is much smaller than in a .30-cal. The big-bore brass is proportionally much thinner. It certainly works, those big projies just pop straight in!

400NE has given good advice, but I would add that it may be necessary to crimp the bigger stuff. I found it to be crucial in the .577 x 2 3/4, which showed inertia-pulling of the bullet in the second barrel when firing the first, but I have not needed to crimp the .470. No experience with the .500...
I suggest you test this yourself in your own gun with your own re-loads. Probably only need to fire 2 or 3 rights, with a cartridge in the left barrel, and measure OAL.

It would not be nice to reload after a shot on DG, to prepare for 'conclusions', and have the cartridge pull apart in the 2nd chamber because a projectile jammed in the leade. The rifle probably wouldn't close again...!

quote:

Originally posted by lb404:
How do you seat a bullet in a very tight case neck without belling it first???

With a seating die. Seriously, it's done in the normal way. It doesn't collapse case necks, at least not with jacketed bullets. Size a few of your .400s without the expander and try it. It works fine. Yes, it leaves a bit of a waist under the bullet, which prevents set back and harms nothing. Original factory Kynoch was done the same way. The stab crimp didn't hold much.

I haven't much handloading experience with the .500 either. In his chapter on the .500 Nitro, Van der Walt states that he has never found the need to crimp the .500 and that he has never experienced recoil pull without it in that caliber.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

I have not done any of my nitro express brass yet as I do not have the rifle in hand. I had some concentricity problems with some of my Winchester brass in 375 H&H. Digging deep in the well of experienced loaders I got a suggestion to resize the brass without the expander all four quadrants of the compass to ensure the brass was being size concentrically. That move worked but the brass was resized .005 under optimum and the 300 gr. Noslers would not seat without crushing the mouth. RCBS makes a neck expander mandral for black powder cases that expands precicely and as a slight flang at the end of the stroke (just like my 500 Jeffery dies) and that move gave ma a runout of less than .002 on all cases. The neck wall tension on those was likely as uniform as It gets.

On my 500 Jeffery, the estimated pressures are are under 45,000 psi and the round in the bottom will take a beating if the bullet is pushed to 2400+ f/s.

I also load for a couple of 404 Jeffery rifles and even with that incredably long neck bullets can and will move under recoil. I think the last test indicated that once the velocity was over 2250 f/s then the bullet moved, at less velocities the bullet stayed put. I tried this with two rifles, one with a relatively tight chamber and one with a loose chamber with similar results. If one could get a manufacturer to build your dies with the sizer that left the neck .003 under bullet diameter and an expander plug that would leave the brass .002 under but with a flared case mouth, your neck wall tension would possible negate the need for crimping. I am just not sure.

quote:

If one could get a manufacturer to build your dies with the sizer that left the neck .003 under bullet diameter and an expander plug that would leave the brass .002 under but with a flared case mouth, your neck wall tension would possible negate the need for crimping. I am just not sure.

Use plenty of super glue on the bullet and crimp like hell.

That's the problem. Most dies seem to be set up to leave the neck ID .002" or so under bullet diameter. That's fine for a .243 but makes no sense at all for a large bore flanged nitro.

I've just measured a half dozen Bell .450/.400 3" cases that are sized in my usual manner (without expander) and ready for primers, powder, and bullets. Neck ID averages .398". I don't use a belling die as I don't own one. I've been seating .408" Woodleighs into these for 15 years and have never been able to collapse a neck or shoulder. In that time period, I'm sure I've loaded well over 1000 rounds of .400 in this manner. I've loaded for a quite a few other DRs during that time as well - mine, and rifles that belonged to others, often with dies that belonged to others. I do it exactly the same way for all of them. Again, I've never collapsed a case neck, never crimp, and have never had a bullet move under recoil, which is something I watch for.

Simple and works like a charm.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

I agree about the long necks. I just had to pull bullets from 4 7x57R rounds. It took forever with my Quinetics impact buller puller, even with moly bullets!
To help seat bullets when there is no expander die, I just use the front end of the bullet and push it into the case mouth. This "bells" the mouth just enough to start the bullet seating process without crushing the neck. I use this when shooting FB bullets.
Peter.

400 nitro express, I am trying to learn from you so be patient with me. If your sizer die reduces your case to .398 and you expand it up using a .408 bullet then you are expanding the case .010 each loading. How much does the sizer reduce a fired case? If it reduces it an equal amount then there is .020 worth of work on the brass. Wouldn't it be better for the brass not to be worked as much and keep the total expansion/compression to under .010? If the brass is worked less then it should last longer and be more concentric as well as have more accuracy potential. Do you agree? What harm is there in using a light crimp to lock the bullet in place better? By the way, thanks to all for the help.

quote:

Originally posted by lb404:
400 nitro express, I am trying to learn from you so be patient with me. If your sizer die reduces your case to .398 and you expand it up using a .408 bullet then you are expanding the case .010 each loading. How much does the sizer reduce a fired case? If it reduces it an equal amount then there is .020 worth of work on the brass. Wouldn't it be better for the brass not to be worked as much and keep the total expansion/compression to under .010? If the brass is worked less then it should last longer and be more concentric as well as have more accuracy potential. Do you agree?

That will never be an issue. I've never had a cracked or split neck in DR brass. If you have a fatigue related failure with DR brass, it will be an incipient head separation. Even with good brass, this will happen long before anything else does. This is the only kind of brass failure I've ever had in a DR, and since I was able to switch to RWS and Bell for my double rifles long ago, I haven't seen one of those, and haven't had to discard a single case.

quote:

What harm is there in using a light crimp to lock the bullet in place better? By the way, thanks to all for the help.

Crimping is harder on case necks than anything else I can think of. With adquate neck tension to begin with, it doesn't lock the bullet into place any better. It can prevent chambering in some guns. I've never encountered that with one of mine, but have with others. It's just an aggravation with no benefit.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

I was in contact with Butch Searcy yesterday. We were discussing the progress of my double rifle. I asked him if he crimped his rounds for double rifles. He always crimps. His rifles are regulated for crimped rounds for several reasons. Consistancy of burning rate as well as no bullet pull. He said the load he regulates his rifles for will change the point of regulation if not crimped. I don't know if that is true for all double rifles.