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Okay, I owe the Sabatti guys an apology. My friend bought one chambered in 470 NE. I looked it over and shot it. For the money, I think it's a good gun. Shoots well too. You have to be careful though. I looked at another at Cabela's yesterday. I swear the muzzle of the right barrel was slightly oblong. Maybe it's just my eyes. When I talked to the guy at Cabela's about the ground muzzle problem, he acted like he didn't know what I was talking about. Be sure and check the regulation target before you buy one. Question: If is shoots well, does it make any difference if the muzzle has been ground? Just askin. Dave DRSS Chapuis 9.3X74 Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL Krieghoff 500/.416 NE Krieghoff 500 NE "Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer" "If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition). | ||
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Nothing against Sabatti as I never shot one yet. But I would not trust a target supplied by any builder. You really don't think they would send out a bad target do you? IF, and thats a big IF a builder would furnish a target of 8-10 rounds, 4 or 5 from each barrel, then mark each shot, record the distance, and the ammo used then I would be more inclined to be a believer. Just my two cents worth. My biggest fear is when I die my wife will sell my guns for what I told her they cost. | |||
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Dave, As you know I have a Sabatti 500 without ground crowns and it shoots great with just about anything I shoot in it. Michael and I did find that the Sabatti we tested with ground crowns showed some instability with solids in the terminals. It shot groups fine with the ammo it was regulated for. | |||
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Dave, as Sam stated, a good group at 25 or 50 yards on paper is only part of the story. If the bullet strikes paper at the right place, but is wobbling, you have no idea what the bullet will do accuracy wise at the next 25 yards or further. Also, penetration will be adversely affected. Again, not trying to put the Sabatti down. I'm still looking at them even at this point. In fact, I looked at a 450/400 yesterday at the Buda Cabelas. Unfortunately, the left barrel was missing about 1/4 inch of rifling on the left side of the muzzle. The others in stock looked OK but were not in calibers I am interested in. | |||
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We need to get a summer shoot togeather, and you can shoot mine in 45-70. While not as nice as some of the more expensive, and nicer doubles, its certainly a field quality double. Only Angels and Aviators have wings | |||
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I'm game. Can make any day but Saturday. With a little luck my Heym will be finished and I can bring it as well. My biggest fear is when I die my wife will sell my guns for what I told her they cost. | |||
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The guys at the Dundee Mich Cabelas are well aware of the early Sabattis ground muzzle thing and say they don't do that any more. Mine has clean muzzles and shoots easily within 2 inches at 50. 450 Nitro. | |||
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What Todd said above! If I might add to that, there have been some of the sabatti rifle with ground muzzles that shot well, when tested on targets at the what most think is the regulated distance. The regulated distance has only to do with the distance the sights are cut for, not the physical regulation of the barrels. The physical regulation is consistent no matter the range. Shooting the rifle past that sight regulation may be good as well with the ground muzzles. The regulation found this way is to make the bullets yaw one way or another to re-join the composite group of both barrels. With this in mind, if the bullet is yawing then it will tend to wobble a long distance before it stabilizes, and as Todd says, how are you to know which side of the bullet will be the impact on the target. Add to that because the barrel’s muzzle is artificially worn, by the grinding, what happen down the road when the other side wears naturally? I I were to buy a Sabatti, I would not buy one with a ground muzzle, and I would shoot it very quickly after I bought it to see if it shot well, so I could return it very quickly as well. Also as Snowwolf e says, a two shot test target is not worth the paper it is supplied on, and tells you absolutely nothing! ………………………………………………………………………………………...........................................  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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Well let me chime in on this subject. I was at Cabbellas yesterday and looked at some of the Sabattis they had on display. I did not have time to do a detailed inspection. There was a 9.3X74 Flanged that the last 2 shots looked pretty good they were just left and about 1 inch low they weren’t marked as to L or R but they were about 1 inch apart. But had the L slightly higher. I might be able to live with that. The problem is the other 2 shots on the target 6-8 inches away at 10 o’clock from the “final adjustment”. How did they get from A to B? I do know how to regulate a double. Just wondering. I don’t think less than 10 shots 5 from each barrel will give you the proper representation of what a rifle will do. You have to find the center of each barrel group. Most of the rifles had one or the other barrel printing vertical like an over and under. Maybe they have shooters from the hood shoot them sideways like they shoot pistols. Well this is what keeps my hands in my pocket as I wouldn’t mind a 45-70 and a 9.3 but just can’t get excited about what I am seeing. Bill Member DSC,DRSS,NRA,TSRA A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way. -Mark Twain There ought to be one day - just one – when there is open season on Congressmen. ~Will Rogers~ | |||
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I would not buy one that had a target marked "final adjustment". This means, to me, that the barrels were not hitting within 2 inches at 50 yards, and needed grinding to make them do so. (Instead of unsoldering the barrels and moving them as is the normal method of regulation.) I am told that Sabatti did this to speed up production a couple of years ago, and no longer uses this method. I had one of those previously, which shot great, but had both muzzles ground; one on the side and one on the bottom. I got another one with only two holes in the target, meaning that no "adjustment' was needed. Indeed, it does shoot to point of aim, just like the sample target showed. Just my opinion, based on owning two Sabattis. both .450s. BTW, my latest Chapuis 9.3 shoots bullets above and below one another; they only say they are regulated within 2 inches, not what the orientation of the bullets will be. That bullet orientation means nothing in a properly regulated rifle. | |||
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What do you mean by this statement? Are you saying that it is acceptable for the L and R barrels to print one on top of the other and that is properly regulated as long as they are within 2 inches of each other? | |||
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I'm with Todd. Did Chapuis say orientation doesn't matter? NRA Endowment Member DRSS | |||
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+1 I'm with Todd. Orientation does matter. I wouldn't trust anything Sabatti put's in a case or in writing, either by a pen or by holes in a target. Previously 500N with many thousands of posts ! | |||
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Why? Dave DRSS Chapuis 9.3X74 Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL Krieghoff 500/.416 NE Krieghoff 500 NE "Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer" "If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition). | |||
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Because.... For an over and under, that would not be an issue. But it is for a SxS. If a double is printing two shots perpendicular to the plane of the barrels (S x S), the regulation is going to result in the shots crossing at some point beyond the regulation range (or maybe even before). Plus, you have one barrel shooting high and one shooting low - you have no way of knowing whether the high and low points will increase or decrease at a range beyond the target regulation range. Unless you do some trial and error shooting. And even if they do happen to maintain the same spread at different ranges, the fact that (1)they will cross at some point and (2) you have to make an on the fly mental adjustment for the second shot to compensate for a 2" drop or height increase) makes for a pretty unreliable weapon for any shot outside the regulation range. The sights on a double are ideally intended to have an aim point in between the two parallel planes striking side by side. How one effectively uses sights on a double not regulated for side by sde hits is beyond me - unless one places the sight on the side of the barrel for gangsta' style shots. A theoretically perfectly regulated double rifle will keep the same parallel spread (at a distance equal to the distance separating the barrels) side by side to infinity. SCI Life Member DSC Life Member | |||
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What do you mean by this statement? Are you saying that it is acceptable for the L and R barrels to print one on top of the other and that is properly regulated as long as they are within 2 inches of each other?[/QUOTE]
Because unless the bullet holes are labeled as to what barrel they came from you have zero idea whether the rifle is crossing or shooting wide or properly. The fact is what you need to know is where the centers of each barrel’s individual group is in relation to the aiming point at the distance the standing sight is cut for. The centers of each barrel’s individual group should remain on it’s own side of the aiming point at any range. The size of those two barrel groups is what makes a proper composite group. The right side of the left barrels group spills over into the left side of the right barrels group to form the composite group, and what you need to know is where the CENTERS of each barrels group is hitting not where two bullets hit the target each from an unknown barrel! This is even more important when working up a load for a rifle’s built in physical regulation. , To find the center of each barrels group you must fire four shots from each barrel all shots fired from cool barrels. The centers of these two groups in relation to the aiming point is what a real test target should show with each shot labeled as to which barrel it came from, other wise it tells you NOTHING except that two shots were fired from the rifle and actually hit the target! IOW, a two shot test target tells you absolutely nothing usable! .........................................................................................  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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Why? I don't think I need to add to the two excellent replies already posted. I especially agree that a 2 shot target by itself just shows 2 shots hitting a target. Fine if you have fired a heap before to get a composite group and you just want 2 shots at a different time to confirm on a clean target to make sure. I sometimes do this (2 shots) just to make sure a new batch of loaded ammo I have made up is the same as the last batch. . Previously 500N with many thousands of posts ! | |||
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 100% | |||
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Because unless the bullet holes are labeled as to what barrel they came from you have zero idea whether the rifle is crossing or shooting wide or properly. The fact is what you need to know is where the centers of each barrel’s individual group is in relation to the aiming point at the distance the standing sight is cut for. The centers of each barrel’s individual group should remain on it’s own side of the aiming point at any range. The size of those two barrel groups is what makes a proper composite group. The right side of the left barrels group spills over into the left side of the right barrels group to form the composite group, and what you need to know is where the CENTERS of each barrels group is hitting not where two bullets hit the target each from an unknown barrel! This is even more important when working up a load for a rifle’s built in physical regulation. , To find the center of each barrels group you must fire four shots from each barrel all shots fired from cool barrels. The centers of these two groups in relation to the aiming point is what a real test target should show with each shot labeled as to which barrel it came from, other wise it tells you NOTHING except that two shots were fired from the rifle and actually hit the target! IOW, a two shot test target tells you absolutely nothing usable! ......................................................................................... [/QUOTE]Also: 100% | |||
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C'mon guys. Shoot the right barrel. Mark the target. Shoot the left barrel. See where it's hitting. Then you'll know. I don't care if one barrel shoots a little high and one a little low as long as you can put all your shots in a 3 inch circle at 50 meters. Your buffalo will never know the difference.  Most decent doubles will shoot better than you can hold anyway. We ain't shooting scoped benchrest rifles here. You just need minute of buffalo.Dave DRSS Chapuis 9.3X74 Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL Krieghoff 500/.416 NE Krieghoff 500 NE "Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer" "If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition). | |||
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Dave Don't disagree with you, in fact quite a few of mine are not exactly SxS as far as I can tell but a SxS DR Shooting slightly high or low with one barrel compared to the other is different to "two shots perpendicular to the plane of the barrels (S x S)" Previously 500N with many thousands of posts ! | |||
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Dave that is fine once you know the rifle you are shooting is properly regulated, but what we are dicussing here is needing to make sure that a SABATTI is properly regulated, and two shots, even if you shoot them yourself will not determine that!. Again the finding the certers of each berrel's group is the only way you can be sure. That needs to be done in short order so the thing can be returned if anything is awry! Sabatti's two shot target will tell you zip! ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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My experience is limited to ownership of just to doubles and in each case, regulation targets printed exactly as advertised. If the DR industry as a whole attempted to just include bogus targets, how soon do you think it would be before the bullshit flag was raised? Now if a rifle is old and used, I can see where a regulation target might not be relevant but in a new rifle? nonsense. jorge USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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Please; based on your contention that bullet orientation is vitally important, then a rifle that put all bullets in the same hole would not be acceptable, as you could not tell which was a left or a right. One on top of the other is perfectly acceptable regulation as long as the bullets are within whatever specification the rifle is built to. I have a Krieghoff that is regulated with bullets at a 45 degree angle, 1.5 inches apart and it shoots that way all day. Is that acceptable? Yes. They don't have to be side by side. A composite group fired in the field will be perfectly regulated for any purpose. | |||
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Do they shoot that way (45 degrees at 1.5 inches, right barrel's group vs left barrel's group) at all ranges, or just to the "regulated range"? Do both bullets go into the same hole at all ranges? Therein lies the problem perhaps. Most DR owners think there is a range at which the barrels's are supposed to cross. This isn't true. In a properly regulated rifle, the right barrel will shoot a certain sized group at specific ranges, and so will the left barrel. If for instance the right barrel will put 4 shots into a 1.5" group at 50 yards, and the left barrel is a bit less accurate, placing 4 shots into a 2" group at 50 yards, then the centers of those two groups should be the same distance apart at 50 yards as the centers of the barrels are (for instance maybe .75"). This being be case, the some of the left barrel bullets will be 1" to the right of the center of its' group and some of the right barrel bullets will be .75" to the left of the center of its' group. The center of the groups being .75" apart, it is evident that some bullets will appear to have crossed. As range increases, the individual barrel's groups will continue to open up, thereby appearing that SOME of the bullets are crossing further. But the centers of the individual barrels groups should continue to be .75" apart to infinity. If one barrel is printing on top of the other barrel at "the regulation range" then the individual barrel's groups are not staying the same distance as the separation between the barrels, and are therefore not properly regulated. With this situation, any distance beyond the "regulation range" will produce an unpredictable grouping. As distance increases, you will have to compensate for both windage and elevation between the two barrels instead of elevation only as is the case of a properly regulated rifle. If you're happy with it shooting like an O/U, who am I to say otherwise. But, it's not correct and no amount of trying to justify it is going to change that because it will only produce that grouping at a specific range! A Double Rifle is only restricted to "50 Yards" if it is not regulated properly! And in the case with the Sabatti that has a ground muzzle, it may only be hitting one on top of the other because one or both bullets are yawing to impact the target at that range. What happens to those bullets as they continue to yaw beyond that range? | |||
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+1 Well said Todd. If you know that your gun shoots accurately and regulated at 25, 50, 100 + yards (and the bullets stay that way beyond that until gravity takes over), then if and when you need to pull off that longer range "Texas heart shot" at a fleeing animal, it is nice to know where the bullets are going. Previously 500N with many thousands of posts ! | |||
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Todd, dpcd is right. Your argument is often made by the "let's put a scope on our double rifle" guys wo want to make a double into something it was never intended to be. Forget everything beyond the regulation range. Doubles are made to get up close and personal and as long as they shoot to regulation, bullet orientation is pretty much irrelevant. If you want to shoot further, take over your scope sighted bolt gun. Dave DRSS Chapuis 9.3X74 Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL Krieghoff 500/.416 NE Krieghoff 500 NE "Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer" "If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition). | |||
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They shoot that way at all ranges up to 100 yards which is as far as I am going to shoot a 450-400, and it has a scope. I see there is no point in my continuing this discussion. | |||
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It is what it IS! And it Ain't what it AIN'T!!  Dave, that 9.3X74R of mine with the scope shoots like a dream at 100 yards. It will do just fine at 200 yards also. Should I chunk it in the corner and take the scoped 375H&H just because it has a single barrel and a bolt? Why, when the little Chapuis will do the exact same thing within normal African ranges of say 200 yards and less? There really is no reason to limit yourself to the arbitrary "regulation range" as is so often referred to. The problem being your definition of "regulation range" and mine are different. But we are back in some ways to the bolt action that will not chamber flat nosed bullets. You're answer was to just shoot round nosed bullets when you know they don't work as well. For just a little time and effort (and money), that bolt gun could be fine tuned to shoot the better performing flat nose bullets and maximize it's potential. What I'm getting at is that with a little tweaking, you can find a load that really does regulate in your double and will shoot the center of the individual barrels' groups parallel to infinity. Why settle for less? If the rifle won't shoot that way, it's not right. Sure, you can limit yourself to short range, but there really is no need to. In fact, you might HAVE TO shoot 100 yards or further to try and stop some dangerous animal that needs some touching up. If you've limited yourself to say, 50 yards, and find you need to let lead fly at a Buff that has been hit and is now augmenting the distance between you of 150 yards or more, do you want to have a snowball's chance of knowing where that bullet is going to go, or would you just say, "well this thing only shoots 50 yards so I'll just let it go"? Like I said, it matters not to me what floats your boat. I like my equipment to function properly, especially when spending the kind of bucks that a DR requires. | |||
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Sorry Dave, that last line may have sounded a little harsh. Not meant to be. Just lively discussion. Still respect your opinions!  | |||
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Todd: Don't give it a second thought. It's just that unlike so many here I have never thought of a double as a long range rig. There are much better tools for that task. When do you get your 577? Dave DRSS Chapuis 9.3X74 Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL Krieghoff 500/.416 NE Krieghoff 500 NE "Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer" "If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition). | |||
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Better rigs? Yes. But more fun rigs? Hmmm ... Not for me at least!  It will be a few weeks on the 577. I've got it on Lay Away right now. At least until I get back from my New Zealand hunt. I leave on the 24th of June. Get back on the 4th July, IIRC. Should give me plenty of time to get familiar for my October Tuskless / Buff hunt with Buzz, or rather Alan! I'm anxious to try her on! Never met one that was too much to handle, yet! Could this be the first?  | |||
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Dave 150 yards is no long range, IMHO. Out past 200 yards is but if the animal gets past 150 - 175 yards and i haven't stopped it, then I have really stuffed up. I have taken the odd 150+ yard shot to stop animals and they have worked and it is really nice to know that the bullet is going where I have sighted. I have also seen a few times a mate drop a Water Buffalo with a head shot out to 75 yards. He knows exactly where that 450 is shooting all the way out to longer ranges. Anyway, a good discussion. Previously 500N with many thousands of posts ! | |||
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Have fun Todd and good luck on your hunt. Dave DRSS Chapuis 9.3X74 Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL Krieghoff 500/.416 NE Krieghoff 500 NE "Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer" "If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition). | |||
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The more I use a double rifle for hunting in North America (specifically Alaska) the more I realize they are not just a short range hunting rifle. Would bet that most hunters are capable of shooting a iron sighted double as well as they can an iron sighted bolt action big bore at 100-250 yards. Don't sell a good double short  My biggest fear is when I die my wife will sell my guns for what I told her they cost. | |||
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Thanks my friend! | |||
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You are assuming that a double rifle is supposed to cross at the distance that the back standing sight is cut for, and that is not the case. If all bullets were hiting the same hole at any distance the regulation would not be acceptable, because that would mean the rifle is crossing at that distance.
Bullets in a double rifle all one on top of thje other is not acceptable at any range. This because a double rifle is never regulated to cross at any distance. The range has only to do with the elevation and windage of the aiming point between the centers of each barrels individual groups. The barrels are adjusted to converge so they will shoot side by side not so the will hit the same hole!
The regulation doesn't change because you are shooting in the field, but because what you shoot in the field is not as precise as the rifl;e is capable of means nothing. However if the proper regulation is not found with your loads does mean thet the loads do not match the regulation built into the rifle. There are TWO regulations, and this is what cause these misconceptions about double rifles. One regulation is a physical one built into the rifle by making the barrels shoot the centers of each barrel's group shoot side by side no matte the range. Then there is the regulation of the sight to aim at a point that is half way between those two centers and be dead on for elevation at the distance when the rifle is shot at that distance. This last REGULATION is for a single distance with that sight, this does not mean the shots should cross at that distance! dpcd, you may believe anything you want but when you need to know if a rifle has been properly regulated you must find the centers of each barrels group in relation to the other barrel and each barrels relation to the aiming point of the sights. If the centers of each barrel's individual groups are crossing and high the load is too slow, and if the centers of the barrel groups are wide and low the load is too fast. If they cross no matter how slow or fast the rifle was not properly regulated, PERIOD! ........................................................................................  I give up it just doesn't sink in! ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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