Guys,

Had a great time at SCI but came back with a new (expensive) thought.

My plan was to have Dorleac build be a .404 bolt rifle, but after spending some time handling double rifles, I’m really thinking I would have a blast with a double in 450/400. Loved the way some of them felt in the hands and came to the shoulder. Also, I have a good number of bolt rifles already.

Based on my conversations at the show, my budget and caliber puts me in the middle of two zones.

Thinking 20-25k and that seems like I could get a really nice Heym (what I spent the most time looking at) or Verney Carron. At the same time, I’m unable to afford a used best quality rifle in good condition. Key to me that whatever I get has great function – I’m going to hunt it and don’t want to deal with mechanical or accuracy issues.

Sounds like the 450/400 has come into favor recently but there was a long period where it was not produced in great numbers – further limiting the availability of good used ‘best quality” options. I’m pretty set on the caliber as buffalo would be primary game and I want reasonable recoil.

So, if you were me, what direction would you head? Hear great things about the Heym and know the function and performance would be good. Could be fun to head to the factory in Germany (I get to Europe for work). Have read some reports saying the VC is better – would be great to get opinions on that.

Or, I can take the classic gun nut approach and surf gun sites and auctions looking for the unicorn rifle (but run the risk of really blowing it because I don’t know enough).

What say the oracles of AR?

Thanks

I would buy the Merkel in the Classified section for $7900 and use the balance to book the buffalo hunt.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
I would buy the Merkel in the Classified section for $7900 and use the balance to book the buffalo hunt.

That is sound advice & if I did not have a 450-400 already,I would be seriously tempted by it,
however if I was primarily hunting Buff? I would prefer it's bigger brother the 450NE,I cannot imagine the recoil to be much worse in a good fitting rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
I would buy the Merkel in the Classified section for $7900 and use the balance to book the buffalo hunt.

.............+ 1

You could do with a little less rifle than the 450/400, maybe a 416 Rigby. Yes it's not a classic rimmed double cartridge, but Heym will build it in an 88B or other variation for you.

I'm only suggesting that other side since you mentioned recoil, and concerned over that. The 416 Rigby gives nothing away to a lot bigger cartridges ( along with a lot more recoil ) - look at the muzzle energy and 100 yard energy, it's right up there with the 577 beasts, but much more pleasant to shoot. Heym is OK doing it in a double, since it has pretty low chamber pressures, no extraction issues. Wouldn't want to do that with a 458 Win Mag I'm thinking.

Plus side of the 416 - it's got great sectional density, and is one of the top penetrating rounds out there. I've shot three elephants with mine, all rounds thru the brain, and out the other side.

You can stay under $20k and still have a nice rifle, nice wood, nice engraving etc. I have to think that the Heym will hold value better than the others also (Merkel,VC, etc).

Get Heym to build you a set of shotgun barrels with the extra money, and bring two guns for the trip next time.

416 on a DR; NO. It ain't a classic DR round. And it is not less rifle, ballistically, than the 450-400. With Hornady ammo, the 416 is at least 300 fps greater.; both use 400 grainers, 416 has less SD than the 400.
Get the 450-400 as a first DG DR; can't go wrong. For less than 10K you can get a Krieghoff or Merkel and never look back. Heyms are fine rifles, but at twice the price, are over priced; not a good value for me. You would think the prices would go down since the Euro is so low....
Of course, if you have the money, and want a Heym, can't go wrong there either; I would like to have one.

There's a 450-400 Verney Carron in the classifieds that is quite dolled up. Nice piece, and with their triple lock-up, you couldn't shoot that loose in your lifetime.

If you bought a double in 416 Rigby, you'd take a big hit if you ever decided to sell it...most folks won't consider a rimless cartridge in a DR.

In your price range a vintage English double in .450-400 is doable. If you go modern, the VC is the best bang for the buck in today's doubles.
Cal

Have you considered a 450NE?

The 450/400 was popular in India as a tiger round.I don't know if it was introduced for that purpose.If you want a quick second shot on a big cat then a double in this chambering might be best.However if you want a stopper double or one that will be best to hunt buff and ele with then I would look at a 450NE or 470NE or 500NE.

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
In your price range a vintage English double in .450-400 is doable. If you go modern, the VC is the best bang for the buck in today's doubles.
Cal

for Glitz-- maybe VC

but for true intercepting sears --Heym

and better pointability

"Reasonable recoil" - the 450/400 in a 9-10lb rifle is a pussycat. Download with 300gr HDY FPs and kids (who have some shooting experience) handle it easily.

Thanks guys - feel good about the 450/400. Did a lot of research on the .404 and think the ballistics are very similar ~400 grains @ 2150?

I'll check out Verney Carron more, look for the one in the classifieds.

quote:

Originally posted by 10generation:
Thanks guys - feel good about the 450/400. Did a lot of research on the .404 and think the ballistics are very similar ~400 grains @ 2150?--

Two of my favorite calibers-

My 450-400 load ran about 2080 out of 24" barrels in one gun and 2190 out of my friends 26"

plenty of uuumpf for Buff

There are a lot of classic Brit 450/400s available at that price point.
You are right about getting them looked at by an expert though.

A couple Westleys for example:

http://www.gunsinternational.c...cfm?gun_id=100479828

http://www.gunsinternational.c...cfm?gun_id=100489135

The 450/400 is fine and comfortable to shoot. The 450 NE is step up and a true classic, plus there are many .458 caliber bullet choices to experiment with if you reload. I've monkeyed around with 300 grain to 500 grain. Keeps things interesting.

Have never handled a VC, but you won't go wrong with a Heym - period. Even JJ, from France, doesn't stand behind VC like he does Heym.

Cal is correct in relation to great quality 40-400's available in your price range. I would check with George at Chmplin.

On the other hand George is correct on the .450. I have owned and shot a few of each. The recoil of the .450 (or any of the 450 class) is not that much greater than the 450-400's but it is a little step up but in the "stopping range".

A 450-400 will do the job as well with proper bullet placement. I love the Verney Caron and spent some time at DSC handling them. They just seem more balanced o me over the Heym. Just my 2 cents.

This was my first, smaller than you have in mind but to show nice old doubles do come up. This is a top of the line "working" double I suppose. It was cheaper than any of the 3 makers you mention new.

If you are looking for a new or slightly used be-spoke gun from those that I have handled I would lean towards the VC, I own a Gibbs 450 NE pretty found of that caliber and of early English Guns
If your heart is set on a 450/400 and you are interested in a English Gun check out the Charles Boswell on http://www.vintagedoubles.com

Gun ID 2413 sorry could not figure out how to get it on this site..

Lovely gun great price 26" Barrels, good weight and stock dimensions that can be made to fit you..
If someone can put it on this site please do..

There is also a very nice Walter Locke chambered in 465 build by W Richards

quote:

Originally posted by 10generation:
Thanks guys - feel good about the 450/400. Did a lot of research on the .404 and think the ballistics are very similar ~400 grains @ 2150?

I'll check out Verney Carron more, look for the one in the classifieds.

The load I shoot in my Heym runs around 2020.

Like you, I have been a dreamer for a nice double for about 10 years. Not ready take the plunge though I came very close a few times.

I have done a lot of research & I also settled on the 450/400 as my first choice and the 450 NE or 470 NE as the second.

The options are variable and dependent on budget.

I decided to stay away from the Merkel & Chapuis.

The VC can be had at less than $15k. The Round body VC looks so much like a British classic! The Heym is great at $18k but it does not have the British classic look. But it does have superior mechanism with intercepting sears.

One could also go for a used British classic from Champlins - ranging from $17k to $25k and beyond.

The thing about buying a used gun is that you need to make sure it fits you correctly or you will need to spend $6k for a new stock. On the other hand you can have a VC or a Heym made to your measurements as a new rifle.

I do not know much about the Searcey rifle but I am told that they are very reliable with top service. They would also be in the similar price range to Heym or a bit less.

If i was desperate, I would get a Sabati & have Aaron Little regulate it - total cost of less than $7k I think.

Half the fun is in making the choice! Wish you all the best.

Here is my Sabatti after having Aaron regulate it. I have about $6k in mine, but I bought it for $4250 when Cabela's was closing them out. Stock work, regulation, and bluing were around $1600, IIRC.

http://forums.accuratereloadin...791047412#8791047412

I've also got some double rifles in the works; three Dickson round actions and conveniently the first three will be 450-400.

Thanks for the mentions.

I have a British 450/400 in the classifieds here also have a lot of loading supplies.

Thanks

You and your son met me in the BVC hunting with Shaun Buffee a few years back. I took my 6th Cape buffalo on that hunt with my Searcy 450-400, a nice 16" bossed, 41 1/2 inched old bull. I love that caliber and it will do just exactly what you want it to do. You can't go wrong with the 450-400.

quote:

Originally posted by scutulatus:


This was my first, smaller than you have in mind but to show nice old doubles do come up. This is a top of the line "working" double I suppose. It was cheaper than any of the 3 makers you mention new.

That is a classic and would love to own such a gun in such condition.