I waited to post this till after my hunt report as I did not want it to detract from the great Safari my wife and I had.

At Dulles airport I had to open up and let TSA inspect the contents of all 3 of my Tuff-Paks.
They were very nice, no problems.

My rifle was fine.
We went from Dulles to Chicago to Dallas Fort Worth.
Upon arrival back to the house I discovered that the stock on my 450, No2 was completely broken at the part of the stock where you grip. Broken right at the rear tang.

The double was in a Tuff-Pak along with my 9,3x74R Chapuis, that was undamaged.

There were several other fragile things in the TP that were not damaged.

Nothing inside, or outside the case showed any signs of damage.

Now my 450 No2 had a very beautiful stock. Much prettier than a double rifle should have. There was a small repair in the right side of the stock at the end of the tang. The stock had a lot of figure in the pistol grip area [and everywhere else.

It actually had one of the prettiest stocks I have ever seen on a double rifle.
That is probably a contributing factor.

I had the stock bent down a little after I bought it. That might be a contributing factor.

Also this is the first time I have traveled wth the double rifles "put together". Always before I traveled with them broken dowm.

In the future I will ALWAYS travel with them broken down.

Would the stock have broken in another type of case... Who knows. I have seen stocks broken in the same place in all other different types of cases.

When TSA reinserted the rifle in the TP did they place the double in there in a bind, who knows.

I never cry over spillt milk.

I have talked to JJ Perodeau about a replacement.
I just do not think I would trust a repair, this rifle shoots elephant at under 6 yards on a "regular" basis, so a new stock is probably the way to go for me, we will see.

When I told him I wanted to replace the stock with a "nice one" he replied, Not one as nice as what you had, grain structure is more important than beauty on a big bore double.

I will have the gun rehinged as well as the lever is left of center.
JJ told me that it would need to be rehinged soon when I bought it. After over 3000 rounds I guess it is time.

Sorry to hear that but I am sure J.J. will put it right. 3000 rounds is not bad!

Really feel bad about your double. Good luck getting it up and running soon.

Tony, hope all goes well with your "loved one" in the Enid ICU.

Sorry to here about this.

Keith

Tony

That is heartbreaking. Such a beautiful piece of wood.

You've had that rifle all over the place. And like you said, over 3000 rounds through it. I don't think the bending or anything else had anything to do with the break. The TP was probably dropped. On a TP, drops usually don't leave marks.

Anyway, don't discount a repair. I had something similar happen when I sent my M98 Mauser Magnum up to NECG to have them cut the bridges for an EAW mount. Fed X handled the shipping. I was about a month away from a trip to Kodiak Island.

Got the rifle back and was sick. The stock was broken in the same place as yours. In its "new" configuration it was great if you wanted to hold up a liquor store. But brown bear would not be amused.

No time to restock (although Fed X did cover the cost for the rifle to be sent back to Germany for a new stock eventually).

Working with my North Carolina shop (Scott Pope at Carolina Sporting arms, first class outfit), we found someone to do a repair.

And what a repair! You would never know it was broken, and the damn thing is stronger than any stock out there. Seems the guy went in from the butt and installed a vice-like deal that pulled both pieces together internally.

I have the new stock on the Mauser now, only because I didn't want to mess with it. But if I take it into a harsh environment again, the old stock goes back on the rifle.

Even if you're set on getting a new stock, even a top quality repair won't be that much, and you'll still have the original any time you like.

Give me a call and I'll show you the original broken stock. If you show me pictures of your safari, I'll even run it by your place.

And if you'd like, you can borrow the stock to show to JJ if he needs it to see how the repair was done - just don't ship it in a tuffpak!

Guys thanks for the condolances.
Jim thanks for the offer. JJ said he might be able to repair it I will have to wait until he looks at it.
I will trust his judgement, he is quite the craftsman.
Usually repairs are even stronger than the original.... It is just The thought.

I do not blame the Tuff-Pak.

what a shame about your rifle. what did the airline say ?

i always travel with my rifles taken apart

no way that sort of thing can happen unless they pierce the aluminum case.

getting it fixed should make it stronger than it was.

Ouch! Tony, sorry to hear about your loss! I know JJ will work his magic in replacing or repairing the stock!

Tony

No problem. The offer was more for you than JJ. I felt the same way you did - she was marked! But after I saw the repair, I was elated.

If you want to take a look, give me a shout. I think once you see what a good repair looks like, you may have a different outlook.

I know one thing - that is one of the nicest pieces of wood I have seen on ANY rifle. If JJ can work his magic, she'll be better than before and you will never be able to tell where the break even was.

Tony, what a bummer! Another source if you think about repair is Dave Wolf in Waco. He is a magician for stock repair. I've seen the before and after pictures of work he's done, as well as in person. He does stock and repair work on a lot of high end doubles. His # is 254-848-4199. I believe he used to work in tandem (and maybe still does) with Kirk Merrington. Hey, I've got some dvd copies of your 1st trip for you. Let me know where to send em and I'll put them in the mail to you. Bob

My sympathies No2. I have two doubles and a Tuffpack. As I recollect, 500 grains has posted several times about his experience with a double and Tuffpack. He got shot down for reporting this. My Kreighoff came with a canvas "bag" to carry it "broken down". I have been toying with the idea of trying to stuff that into a Tuffpack, as opposed to the typical gun case for a double.
Again, my sympathies. I have not seen your rifle but I understand your pain! Having said that, with my limited knowledge of "heavy" rifles, I have never been concerned about looks, but more with strength. Still, it's nice to have both. My MK Owen has nice wood.
Peter.

Tony, I am very sorry to hear about the destruction of your stock. As Pete mentioned, TuffPak's distributor Mims Reed has called me a liar for posting that one of my doubles was damaged while being transported in a TuffPak. And probably you and I are not the only ones to have a bad experience because AR members represent only a small fraction of the hunting community.

Sorry for your loss.
I've had good luck with a tuff pak and my DR. I put the rifle in a Boyt soft break down shotgun case, and it stows quite nicely in the TP broken down.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
I waited to post this till after my hunt report as I did not want it to detract from the great Safari my wife and I had.

At Dulles airport I had to open up and let TSA inspect the contents of all 3 of my Tuff-Paks.
They were very nice, no problems.

My rifle was fine.
We went from Dulles to Chicago to Dallas Fort Worth.
Upon arrival back to the house I discovered that the stock on my 450, No2 was completely broken at the part of the stock where you grip. Broken right at the rear tang.

The double was in a Tuff-Pak along with my 9,3x74R Chapuis, that was undamaged.

There were several other fragile things in the TP that were not damaged.

Nothing inside, or outside the case showed any signs of damage.

Now my 450 No2 had a very beautiful stock. Much prettier than a double rifle should have. There was a small repair in the right side of the stock at the end of the tang. The stock had a lot of figure in the pistol grip area [and everywhere else.

It actually had one of the prettiest stocks I have ever seen on a double rifle.
That is probably a contributing factor.

I had the stock bent down a little after I bought it. That might be a contributing factor.

Also this is the first time I have traveled wth the double rifles "put together". Always before I traveled with them broken dowm.

In the future I will ALWAYS travel with them broken down.

Would the stock have broken in another type of case... Who knows. I have seen stocks broken in the same place in all other different types of cases.

When TSA reinserted the rifle in the TP did they place the double in there in a bind, who knows.

I never cry over spillt milk.

I have talked to JJ Perodeau about a replacement.
I just do not think I would trust a repair, this rifle shoots elephant at under 6 yards on a "regular" basis, so a new stock is probably the way to go for me, we will see.

When I told him I wanted to replace the stock with a "nice one" he replied, Not one as nice as what you had, grain structure is more important than beauty on a big bore double.

I will have the gun rehinged as well as the lever is left of center.
JJ told me that it would need to be rehinged soon when I bought it. After over 3000 rounds I guess it is time.[/QUOT

I wonder if it was transported in an unheated cargo compartment at say 50 to 100 below and if it was in a bind the cold might have been to much.

Wow ... what a bummer! Sorry for your loss.

Thankfully, the stock can be replaced and you're able to do that.

My guess is that the extra weight of a double's barrels can result more force being placed on the wrist of a stock than would be placed on the wrist of a bolt rifle when the case and its contents are thrown about. Probably a lesson here that we should all recognize ... best to ship double rifles broken down.

Well Tony, it's damaged beyond repair, so I'll give you $100 cash for the pieces that are left!
...................

Tony: I was all set to buy a TufPak, but between experiences like yours and the lock issues, I think I will go with an ICC-like case instead.

Tony!

I can see two ways that the damage could have occured. The first would be if someone took the rifle out of the case and broke the stock on purpose (an anti-hunter?). The second would be if the barrels and action were held very rigid by your packing material but the butt stock was free to move. In that case, the stock moving from a fall such as off the conveor belt to the ground could cause the stock to break at it's weakest point the grip area. Fancy wood is nice but if it extends into the grip area it will not be as strong as a plain but strait grained stock in the grip area.

I have placed my rifles both bolt and doubles in a KKK heavy aluminum case with the double always broken down. I also add rags areound the muzzle ends and around the stocks to provide added cushioning and more importantly added thickness so the case will only close with a great effort. This reduces movement of the rifles in the case.

465H&H

Sorry to read of the damage, but the hunt apparently went well with your backup rifle. What ever caused the stock to break I'd just be glad it didn't just cause damage that decided to give way while you were faced with a pissed off Jumbo.

Thankfully the stock broke on the way home.
The case was not opened after it was checked at Dulles.
I still like the Tuff-Pak, I will just travel with them broken down from now on.

I had the 2 drillings in the TuffPak take down case. I think I like it best as it is short enough that you can reach down to the bottom of it.

Mac, Thanks for the offer... You are a Prince.

Looking foward to seeing you at DSC

Tony,
Don't forget to use you NRA insurance...and I think SCI even has a plan. I would also file a claim with the airline if you havent done so...It all may help with the cost.

Sorry for the bad news...

Tony,
sorry to hear about your misfortune!
I know how much you liked that rifle,I just went through a similiar experience myself,one of the rifles that I traded for my 470 Merkel arrived at the dealer with a cracked stock,wish you all the best & hope it all works out to your satisfaction.

Tony:

Events like this require many tears into your whiskey tumbler.

Hopefully the insurance will cover most of the replacement cost of the new stock.

Very sorry to hear about you rifle. But the good news is that what has been made by man can be either repaired or replaced. Hope things go well and you get your due from the airlines and insurance companies. Don't overlook a claim on your homeowner's policy most have some coverage for lost or damged personal property.

Best,

JPK

What a shame. I feel for you. I broke the stock on a shotgun I had great affection for. Have it glued back together aqnd make a lamp out of it for your desk. It will be there to remind you of your travels together. If done right will look great.

JD

JD
That might be a good idea, had not thought of that. I did think about having handgun grips made from it. I think I like your idea better.

Tony,

Dan and I talked today you should just throw that old double in your car and drop it off to us

Aleko

I had some lengthly litigation with the carrier for UPS about a broken stock. During the process, I had several discussions with the folks at AmeriCase and learned the results of their experiments as to what most often caused stocks to break at the wrist. Americase makes great cases, with internal strapping, btw.

Generally, it takes two (2) "drops" of a case to cause a break. The first causes the gun to shift in the case to where both the muzzle and the toe of the stock touch the interior hard-wall of the case. (This can happen very, very easily in a conventional case without retaining straps). On the second impact, particularly if the blow to the case is flat across the entire bottom of the container), the gun "has no where to go" and all the energy of the blow is taken simultaneously at the two small points in contact with the hard case material (Toe and muzzle). When you have a gun weighing 10 lbs. or more, dropped maybe three feet, just think of the force tranmitted down the barrel and up through the buttstock to the delicate wrist at the grip.

So, what do you do to avoid this? In a conventional case, if not already equipted, put in restraining straps to keep the gun centered in the middle of the case where it won't slip down.... (Through the side of the case, I just put a screw/washer over velcro and poke it through the foam and strap 'er down). Two retaining straps are good, three better! In takedown double cases, I got another foam insert and cut out the shape of my doubles and insert them in the cutout. I've never had one move this way, either.

Just for fun, put your gun in a conventional case and just tap the case flat on the ground several times. You'll find that, even with egg crate foam, the gun will slip some... think about a three foot drop onto concrete. God forbid a 10 foot drop.

As to TuffPaks, which I use, I glue in a couple of inches of closed cell foam in the bottom and top, and am very careful to have sufficient clothes packing around the gun on the sides and ends, so that it may give an few inches, but will never contact the bottom... unless maybe someone threw the thing out of the cargo door of a 747 or some evil such thing...

Anyway, my survey of this type accidents to the wrists of guns almost always is the result of both the muzzle and the toe impacting at the same time and all that energy has no where to go but to the wrist... then, alas.

Now, if that makes any sense, God bless you.

BTW, I once went to Africa with a pretty tough looking case with a piano hinge golf club style. When I openned the case in the Selous, I discovered that the case had been dropped so hard on one end that the barrel had knocked a 2" round hole in the case and a famous Mickey Mouse p.j. top was sticking out of the hole. About to die, I tenderly looked at the custom .404 Jeffery and could find no damage whatsoever. I put on the QD scope and dang if I didn't hit 1" high with solids and softs.... I fixed the case with fiberglass and now it's retired to golf club use only!

Tony:

That's what you get for doubting the .450/.400. The .400 worked out well for you on elephant, buffalo, and lion, as you knew it would, so you should have left that antiquated .450 No. 2 at home, and it wouldn't have been broken. Since you have the .400, the No. 2 is just a wall hanger anyway.

I really think you should let have J. J. have a go at repair before you restock. After proper repair, that kind of break is usually stronger than it was before and is often invisible. Besides, it's a pretty stick, and a restock is going to end up close to $4500. Bummer either way.
------------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Tony

Don't go "Martha Stewart" on us!

A lamp? Stay away from that Lifetime Network and Home and Garden - it is a scientific fact that it destroys testosterone and causes huge increases in estrogen production.

Yeah. It starts with turning classic stocks into household accessories. Next thing you know the knitting needles will come out at a DRSS shoot to finish up those tea cozies for the holidays.

It is obvious you are still grief strickien from this tragedy. That can be the only explanation.

Combine an afternoon at the range with a double rifle, followed by a few tots of GOOD scotch. Repeat as necessary. Avoid those TV channels and Rock Hudson movies.

I'm sure DOC52 will write you a scrip for it. Wonder if ammo and scotch are covered under an HMO? Gotta go check my health coverage now. Just in case...

Jim

quote:

Wonder if ammo and scotch are covered under an HMO?

Ok, Jimmy's post reminded me of something that happened to my father-in-law not long ago.

Moral of the story, if you have to go to the hospital, do it in Austria.

My father-in-law checked into the hospital for tests on his stomache. It turned out to be a strained muscle.

Well, the first night he is in there, he was watching soccer and must had annoyed the nurses to no end because they brought him the BEER that he kept asking for. (My wife was actually on the phone with him when this happened.)

Was the Beer covered by his insurance? Don't know. But if I have to have tests done in the hospital, I'm doing it in Austria.

Judge
That could have happened ie the bbl and stock both touching the bottom of the case.
The rifle is not long enough to do this on its own but when TSA pulled it out and reinserted it the ammo container could have gotton under the bbl.

Who Knows. I do know this I will never travel with a double rifle put together.

Mark I will have JJ take a look and see what he says, he did indicate he might be able to repair it.

Still it is a "Mental" thing with me. I will have to wait and see.

Jim, what is wrong with Martha Stewart? Like me she likes HER MERLOT!

By the way, I have drank a LOT of good Scotch since I discovered the broken stock.

500grains
Dan, I do not blame the Tuffpak for my broken stock, as stocks have been broken in every kind of case. If I was leaving tommorow for anywhere I would use my tuffpak. I would just travel with the rifles broken dowm.

quote:

As to TuffPaks, which I use, I glue in a couple of inches of closed cell foam in the bottom and top, and am very careful to have sufficient clothes packing around the gun on the sides and ends,

Ernest, God love ya, but for the 300 plus bucks one pays for a Tufpak, you'd think they'd at least give you some padding at no cost. CCI's the case for me or even the old Browning Travel Vault as they both secure the guns in a "cutout" so as to prevent the slippage you talk about.

Also, if TSA makes you unpack an you are in a hurry, you might goon up the repacking and suffer the consequences. The integral lock I also think is a liability. What I DO like about the Tuffpak is the "camouflage" factor in that some might confuse it for a golf bag. jorge

Jorge:

I absolutely agree that (if one so designates, and at the price charged) several things could make the TuffPak better (and I think the company is looking into several changes). One, it should have a TSA friendly lock. Two, foam liner should be provided to either put in or take out as needed and finally, it should be printed on the side, "Dear thief or terrorist. This is not a gun but a non-lethal toy like a golf bag and even if it is a gun, it is an expensive rifle bound for Africa, so don't screw up this dude's safari by stealing the enclosed multi-thousand dollar firearm").

I really think, considering all the ways an airline could damage a rifle, Tuffpak is the best of a bunch of imperfect... no, that's not the right word...maybe well designed, but not perfect... cases, and that Americase is good, too. Tuffpak gives you the ability to make your cushion as thick or thin as you dare, while Americase secures guns in place, tighter than a tick in a puppy's navel... but again, I have everything from Cabelas metal cases to an old bra from the lady who served in the lunch line at junior high.... I forgot what rifle I put into the tent-sized edifice, but I sure remember the night.

BTW, Jorge, I'm glad you still like me, but I only put up with you because you have such a good looking wife. and that's the understatement of the year...
I'll be around this weekend if you want to go to the club?

Tony, what you seem to be saying is that a TuffPak is not safe for travellign with a rifle that is not broken down. I agree. I would never travel with a full length rifle of any sort in a Tuffpak again. Tuffpaks are great at protecting themselves. However, it does not seem they are too good at protecting their contents.

But a Pelican with sculpted foam is safe for both bolt guns and doubles.


As for judgeG putting foam at the ends of his tuffpak, that is exactly what I did, but my double was still damaged in the tuffpak.

Dan
Rifles have been broken in every type of rifle case. Many times the case itself is bent, crushed or broken open. I think the tuffpak is stronger than other cased in preventing this type of damage.

I have read several times if stocks being broken in other cases where there was no damage to the outside of the case.

It is just a fact that some airline employes treat baggage terrible. I have seen it first hand.

In addition, no doubt rifle cases sometimes get rough treatment on purpose.

Those who want a TSA-friendly lock on the TuffPak are missing the point, Once they inspect your firearm case THEY ARE NOT ALLOWED TO BREAK INTO IT & ONLY YOU CAN HAVE THE KEY TO IT.

Does an Americase have a TSA-friendly lock? NO! No case designed to carry a firearm has or can have a TSA-friendly lock.

A gun case, by regulation, can only be opened by the passenger so no one else can have a lock.

Please read the regulations...if your locked firearm case has been opened there has been a breech of security and you should not leave the terminal until you make a stink about it...someone screwed up and someone should have their ass.

DB Bill is correct. In fact I have traveled a couple of times with guns in both of my checked bags. That way I am the ONLY one allowed to have a key and open the bags.

THINK ABOUT IT.