Hello all.

I hope maybe some here can help me.

I am looking at my first double rifle, a vintage Wilkinson in .375 H&H Magnum. Yes, the belted one, not R version.

Yes, I know that a break open gun should be in a R caliber.
But, how will one work in a belted caliber?
Will it for SURE be a problem down the road?
(Hate to have that, close in on a bear, moose or a lion.)

Better to look for one in a R caliber?

All help, tip is needed. Thank you all for looking and helping me.

A good afternoon all.

It'll be fine. All the major makers of double rifles offer the 375 H&H in their line-up....they wouldn't if they had problems with them. If you're a double rifle guy, a scoped 375 makes a great carry rifle in Africa, while a tracker carries your large double.

9.3

Should be fine but a couple of things to check.

If it is a Vintage gun, check to see if
it was origianlly chambered in this calibre
OR re chambered from 375 Fl or 375 Fl Magnum.

And if so, was it re proofed.

And if so, check how the extractors or
ejectors are set up and if they work OK.

Otherwise, go for it if all else is good.

9.3 I went through the same process you are going through. In my case it was with a double in 416 Rigby. Yes, these are fine guns, and, they are cheaper than their rimmed cousins. But there is a reason for that. Double rifle shooters/owners tend to be "traditionalists", and the reason the 375H&H and 416 Rigby doubles are cheaper is that there is less demand for them! It's that simple! There is a whole wealth of discussions on this topic (non rimmed double rifles) on this forum. Yes, they work most of the time. The problem is that getting a case jammed between the chamber and the extractor gives you a very expensive club. Likelihood? Very small! The experts can and will weigh in I am sure. Bottom line though is that your non rimmed double will not resell for as much as it's rimmed cousins. I wound up with a 500/416 and love the gun.
FWIW, Peter.

Hello and thank you all for the reply and information.
I will find a double with a R caliber, just to be on the safe side.

Hello and thank you all for good information and reply.

I will look for a double in a R caliber, just to be on the safe side.

Hey - don't slam the door yet - lets put some shades on this!

First - on caliber by John Taylor (African Rifles and Cartidges):

".375 Magnum Holland & Holland. Undoubtedly one of the deadliest weapons in existence. It heads the list from the point of view of its calibre (author speaks about Medium bores), and in the opinion of many hunters ought to easily head it from the point of view of its power also. I’ve had five of these rifles – two doubles and three magazines – and have fired more than 5000 rounds of .375 Magnum ammunition at game. The animals included most species from elephant down. One of them accounted for more than 100 elephant and some 411 buffalo, besides rhino, lions and lesser game..." Might serve as a Rat Gun tho...

Now - on rifle...

Lets assume that there is a certain double floating European markets for some time...stamped by Wilkinson - Pall Mall - London



...with following facts:

Cal .375 Holland & Holland Belted Magnum rimless cartridge

BOXLOCK system



Extractors only



...very nice stock



1 Stand rear sight 50 yards with 2 folding rear sights 75 & 100 yards



Now onto flats:





...made in 1920...cheaper than 140-AE NIB Merkel...

Chopper lump barrels as well.

Is that a re chamber / re proof ?

Can't see the "R".

Looks like the same gun that has appeared elsewhere to me too. Here are some additional photos from a post in the NE forums:










The flats say 375 EX and that is the 2-1/2" flanged version. Could this be another case of someone rechambering a .375NE 2-1/2" (Express) to .375 H&H Magnum? I've see that done with a couple of falling block rifles before.

I was also looking at the 4810 Bar.

I can't remember when the BAR
stated to be used.

quote:

...made in 1920...cheaper than 140-AE NIB Merkel...

Mouse

What price is it listed at ?

The numbers on the flats look odd. A standard load for the .375NE 2-1/2" was 40 gr of cordite and a 270 grain bullet. The 3 in 300 looks like it was stamped over a 7. The first 0 in 300 looks just like the 0 in 60 but the second 0 in 300 is different. Did someone remove a 4 and replace it with a 6 to make it look like 60 grains? Did someone remove the 2 in 270, over-stamp the 7 with a 3, and add another 0 to make it look like 300 grains?

You have better eyesight than me.
I can vaguely see what you are
talking about.

I think a REALLY close up of
BOTH Sides of the flats would
be needed with the close up
photos put side by side so
we can look at both sets of
number together.

quote:

Originally posted by 505G:

quote:

...made in 1920...cheaper than 140-AE NIB Merkel...

Mouse

What price is it listed at ?

On seller's site € 6.750.-,
On auction - starting price is € 5.750.- "buy now" is € 5.950.-

I've played some with pics that are available and came up with these:







What I gather is that rifle was a 375 2-1/2" flanged until 1995 when it was rechambered to 375 H&H Mag. (60-300 MAX - prooved in London). Looking fair and square to me:

London 1670-1955



London 1904-> Definitive nitro (smokeless) powder proof for all guns



Date marks

The initial London date stamp from 1972 also included the letter “H”, but that was dropped and after that it has only the letters “LP”

Thanks.

Now I can see the reproof mark.

So everything else about the stamping over
is kind of irrelevant as it was correctly
proofed and IMHO, they have done a good job
of over stamping if that is what they have done.

...now what?

I bet this rifle "has been around and sailed the seas and has stories to be told"...bit awkward for a first double - must admit - but it is sailing home...

"Lets assume that there is a certain double floating European markets for some time..."

Sometimes it is better to pull a gun off the market than leave it on as unsold.

The longer a gun stays "for sale", the harder it can be to sell it.

Just my HO.


Edit
I just noticed the wedge between the barrels,
has this gun been re regulated ? Just looks
that way.

They could have filled the gaps with solder,
leaving them open like that isn't good.

So, mouse, tell us the story! I think that is a nice looking gun, and, cheaper than a Merkel?
Peter.

Peter I wish I could - I was eyeing this rifle 2 or 3 years ago when selling price was € 7.500...

I believe shooting it would be mandatory before buy. If it is tight and shoots well - those 28" barrels might just do that - it could be a keeper.

I already own 9.3 and being a lefty doesn't help much - restocking would be another butchering that this rifle don't deserves - so I am done with it I guess...but somebody will eventually get it and since it isn't a collectors item, take it to the field where it belongs.

mouse93,

Nice bit of detective work on your part. Did you ever find out what she weighs?

Definately a rifle that could be taken into the field if everything checks ok.

Hi.

Sorry for my late reply.
Yes, that is the double I am looking at.

http://auctions.holtsauctionee...o=+++67908&saletype=

Here is nice conversion - original H&H made in 1902 as 2.5 inch 375 & reproofed as a Flanged 375 in 2013!

Naki

There was a reason H&H uses the Reinforced
(bolstered) action for the 375 Fl Magnum
and the 465H&H (and others) after a certain
time.

I am not a fan of this re chambering / reproof.

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
It'll be fine. All the major makers of double rifles offer the 375 H&H in their line-up....they wouldn't if they had problems with them. If you're a double rifle guy, a scoped 375 makes a great carry rifle in Africa, while a tracker carries your large double.

Biebs, they would chamber a double rifle to 50 BMG if the customer was willing to buy them. The fact that they are chambered for rimless, or belted rimless cartridges simply means they make what the customers want. In the maker’s case all they have to worry about is if the action is strong enough to handle the pressure. If it fails to eject later that is the owner’s problem.

I have one rule on this subject for my buying of double rifles, and that is if the rifle is to be used for dangerous game, it has to have four things #1 it has to have a flanged cartridge, #2 it must have two triggers, and #3 it has to have a manual safety, and #4 it absolutely must re-cock IT’S SELF when opened!

If it is to be used for nothing more dangerous that deer, or wild hogs, then the only one of the four that still applies is #2.

Opinions vary, but that is mine, and worth nothing to anyone but me!
........................................................................... hold your fire!

Mac, agreed. I wouldn't consider a double in 375 H&H a DGR.....more of an all-around rifle.

Biebs that would be my reason for having a 375 belted double. As an all around rifle. Loaded with a soft and solid you are well prepared for the little antelope or Eland. It is a nice size caliber to have in your hands at a good velocity. The 500-416 does the same duty in a more acceptable case and with better bullet weight for DG but with a little more felt push. Most people can handle a 375 belted and ammo is more readily available. Also Biebs if you had a 375 Weatherby bolt rifle you could carry take both (double and bolt rifle)to South Africa and use the H&H ammo in both

Yes, the belted 375 DR would be a nice "walking" rifle, with a large-caliber bolt or DR close-by in the hands of a tracker.