Let me preface this discussion with a bit of information about myself as I am a new member to this site.

I am a young man finishing up school, with big dreams of big game in African, taken with big double rifles. I am obsessed with double rifles and wish to someday own a fine English made double rifle from the bygone era when hunters were still taking ivory out of Kenya.

That being said, I scraped together enough money to buy my first double rifle... well kind of. I bought one of the Pedersoli Kodiak Mk.IV rifles in 45-70. I really love the look of it and being an avid colorado hunter, I am excited at the prospect of actually being able to hunt elk with a double.

I have not yet recieved the rifle, but will do so shortly, so I cannot comment on the quality yet. I'm nervous... I hope I did not make a mistake and that it will be sufficient to slake my thirst for a double rifle until I can get a good old English one.

I have been surfing the net in search of information regarding the loads used by Pedersoli to regulate these rifle, in an effort to determine if the regulating loads would be suitable for elk. Needless to say... I have found a great wealth of excellent knowledge on this site, thank you all for sharing it.

In my search regarding the 45-70 loads for the Pedersoli, I came across some interesting threads in which it was mentioned that at least one of these rifles had been rechambered for the 450 No. 2 Nitro Express cartridge (as I am sure you all know).

While it seems that the general consensus is that rechambering this rifle in 450 no.2 is risky, I am not sure why that is the case.

Let me preface my questions by saying that I am by no means an expert on internal ballistics and that my understanding of them is rudementary.

Ok, here we go...

It is my understanding that the maximum pressure for the 45-70, according to the C.I.P. is 2200 bar, about 31900 psi.

According to the C.I.P., the maximum pressure of the 450 No.2 NE is 2800 bar, 40611 psi.

But... in reading John Taylor's Arican Rifles and Cartridges, I noticed that he lists the pressure of the 450 No.2 as 13 tons. I am guessing that Taylor was going by what Kynoch specified. I checked the Kynoch website and sure enough, 13 tons per square inch is the pressure for the 450 No.2. 13 tons per square inch equates to 26000 psi. I also found in the Ammunition Encyclopedia 3rd ed. that 26000 psi is listed as the average breech pressure for the 450 No.2.

So, which is it? C.I.P. says 40611 psi, everything else I can find seems to indicate that it is 26000 psi. What is the reason for the difference?

I understand the concern regarding the removal of additional material around the chambers when reaming them out for the larger case. But wouldn't a hoop stress calculation be able to show if there was any danger? Knowing the geometry of the barrels, the new chamber dimensions, and assuming that you could find out the grade of steel used, it would seem that you could determine if the new barrel-chamber geometry would provide the minimum wall thickness required to contain the 26000 psi pressure (assuming that it is 26000 psi).

So... if the pressure generated by a factory 450 No.2 NE cartridge is less than that of the 45-70, and the minimum wall thickness can be obtained, it might not be that risky of a conversion. Right???

Anyhow, that is my confusion regarding the matter. Please tell me what I have wrong, like I said, I am not an expert.

Thank you for reading my post. Any input is most appreciated.

Educate me.

I think JJ Perodeau at www.champlinarms.com would give you
excellent and honest guidance on this issue; as would Michael
Merker, John Maples and Bailey Bradshaw. Do searches to get
phone numbers and make the calls.

quote:

Originally posted by gcgeal:
Let me preface this discussion with a bit of information about myself as I am a new member to this site.

First off, gcgeal, let me be the first to welcome you to Accurate Reloading website! As you stated below there is a wealth of knowledge in the double rifle field here, and folks who are willing to help!

quote:

I am a young man finishing up school, with big dreams of big game in African, taken with big double rifles. I am obsessed with double rifles and wish to someday own a fine English made double rifle from the bygone era when hunters were still taking ivory out of Kenya.

Hunters are still taking ivory out of Africa!

quote:

That being said, I scraped together enough money to buy my first double rifle... well kind of. I bought one of the Pedersoli Kodiak Mk.IV rifles in 45-70. I really love the look of it and being an avid Colorado hunter, I am excited at the prospect of actually being able to hunt elk with a double.

I have not yet recieved the rifle, but will do so shortly, so I cannot comment on the quality yet. I'm nervous... I hope I did not make a mistake and that it will be sufficient to slake my thirst for a double rifle until I can get a good old English one.

Never be ashamed of owning ANY double rifle! I have owned two of the Pedersolis and both shot very well

quote:

I have been surfing the net in search of information regarding the loads used by Pedersoli to regulate these rifle, in an effort to determine if the regulating loads would be suitable for elk. Needless to say... I have found a great wealth of excellent knowledge on this site, thank you all for sharing it.

In my search regarding the 45-70 loads for the Pedersoli, I came across some interesting threads in which it was mentioned that at least one of these rifles had been rechambered for the 450 No. 2 Nitro Express cartridge (as I am sure you all know).

While it seems that the general consensus is that rechambering this rifle in 450 no.2 is risky, I am not sure why that is the case.

The reason most find fault with this re-chambering is, because most think a Pedersoli rifle cannot be re-regulated if the regulation goes south with the re-chambering to 450NE #2 or the 450NE 3 1/4 inch, not the pressure. This has been done plenty of times without a problem where chamber pressure is concerned.

quote:

Let me preface my questions by saying that I am by no means an expert on internal ballistics and that my understanding of them is rudementary.

Ok, here we go...

It is my understanding that the maximum pressure for the 45-70, according to the C.I.P. is 2200 bar, about 31900 psi.

According to the C.I.P., the maximum pressure of the 450 No.2 NE is 2800 bar, 40611 psi.

The above is absolutely true!

quote:

But... in reading John Taylor's Arican Rifles and Cartridges, I noticed that he lists the pressure of the 450 No.2 as 13 tons. I am guessing that Taylor was going by what Kynoch specified. I checked the Kynoch website and sure enough, 13 tons per square inch is the pressure for the 450 No.2. 13 tons per square inch equates to 26000 psi. I also found in the Ammunition Encyclopedia 3rd ed. that 26000 psi is listed as the average breech pressure for the 450 No.2.

So, which is it? C.I.P. says 40611 psi, everything else I can find seems to indicate that it is 26000 psi. What is the reason for the difference?

In the first place breech pressure, and chamber pressure are two entirely different things! Breech pressure is a C.U.P. measurement, that measures reverse thrust on a copper crusher disk in British LONG TONS (2240 lbs) So even if the C.U.P pressure could be directly converted to chamber pressure in P,S.I. , witch it can't the pressure would be 29120 P.S.I. but the 29120 is C.U.P. not P.S.I. The chamber pressure for the 450NE #2 is 40611 P.S.I.

quote:

I understand the concern regarding the removal of additional material around the chambers when reaming them out for the larger case. But wouldn't a hoop stress calculation be able to show if there was any danger? Knowing the geometry of the barrels, the new chamber dimensions, and assuming that you could find out the grade of steel used, it would seem that you could determine if the new barrel-chamber geometry would provide the minimum wall thickness required to contain the 26000 psi pressure (assuming that it is 26000 psi).

So... if the pressure generated by a factory 450 No.2 NE cartridge is less than that of the 45-70, and the minimum wall thickness can be obtained, it might not be that risky of a conversion. Right???

Anyhow, that is my confusion regarding the matter. Please tell me what I have wrong, like I said, I am not an expert.

Thank you for reading my post. Any input is most appreciated.

Educate me.

gcgeal, The above calculations are a common mistake, so don't take my correction in you education as a bad thing! The corrections were simply to avoid you making a serious mistake in working up loads with the misconception that C.U.P. can be converted to P.S.I.

As far as re-chambering a Pedersoli Kodiak to 450NE #2 it has been done on several without any ill affect other that a large jump in recoil, and on some destroying the regulation. The barrels on the Pedersolis are brazed together, and as a result are very risky to re-regulate. I have an early Kodiak from T.G.A. and it is only 134th rifle to come off the bench at pedersoli. This rifle shot right to regulation with my 45-70 handload with a 400 gr bullet that were loaded for my 45-70 Ruger No1, and I would say they were above 31900 PSI. I re-chambered this rifle to a wildcat designed by Fred Huntington called 458RCBS. This cartridge is made from a 45 basic case trimmed to 2.75 inch, loaded with 67 grs of IMR4064 behind a 400 gr bullet for 2000 fps. Those loads shot to the same POI as my 45-70 loads that were loaded for my Ruger No1 in the pedersoli!

There is a gun shop in Tulsa that has the reamers for the 450NE#2 and they did one for PWN375 who posts here on occasion, and a smith in Conroe, Texas who does them in 450NE 3 1/4 inch. Hogkiller who posts here can give you the name and phone number of the Conroe smith.

................Now that you are a double rifle owner, you need to put the DRSS in your signature line, as you are now a member! click on the DRSS website in my sig line below! it is sparce with info right now but is still in construction. Click on the history, the becoming a member, and the 2007 hunt prompts on the site. Come on in the water's fine!

Mac, great reply, you are still "The Man"! 1937 was a very good year, I guess!

My brother had a Kodiak in 45/70 and it shot great with several different factory loads, 300gr and 400gr including Garrett's lead bulleted loads and our "standard" 45/70 load.

While rechambering CAN be done, I would not recommend it as the rifle is fairly light and the recoil goes way up with the Nitro Express rounds.
I have hunted quite a bit with a British 450 No2.

Info my brother got from Pederosoli in e mails stated that the Kodiak was safe for any load safe in a Marlin 45/70, which makes it plenty powerful enough for any game in the USA.

So I recommend you keep it a 45/70 and enjoy it till you get another double for Africa.

You stated "It is my understanding that the maximum pressure for the 45-70, according to the C.I.P. is 2200 bar, about 31900 psi."
A-Square's "Any Shot You Want" loading manual lists the 450 #2 NE maximum average pressure as 35,559 CUP or piezo PSI as 39,913 PSI, (dangerously) well above what you stated. The 450#2NE ammunition allowable "Maximum indicated pressures" are even (dangerously) higher. A-Square Company Inc is listed as the Governing body for the 450#2NE (not CIP, at least as of 1996 the publishing date) and their reloading manual states "the 450#2 does not appear as standardized in the CIP. Art at A-Square and Dave Mason at Clymer worked together in order to re-standardize the cartridge." -page 550 above reference. (Art Alphin of A-square was an Army ballistic engineer with a degree in Weapon Systems Engineering.) "Any Shot You Want" loading manual is recommended reading in general and contains additional specifics concerning 450 #2 NE including recommended hand loads with the associated pressure specs. A-Square pride themselves on performing extensive and accurate pressure testing for Safari rifle ammunition and loads, in particular dangerous game (DG) loads. If desired you can order their manual on website for A-Square.

I have a MkIV in 45-70 and studied allowable load pressure information a year or two ago when determining what ammunition to use. Use of Handloads or re-manufactured ammunition will void Pedersoli warranty per their manual. Yet their manual did not state recommended regulation ammunition. I was told MkIVs are regulated by laser, not by the traditional test fire and re-solder wedge method, perhaps thus no cited regulation ammunition as would usually be included with a gun as is done by other reputable double rifle manufacturers. Does your rifle come with a test target, typically fired at 50 meters? If so the regulation load should be listed. I located (did not purchase) some good 45-70 hunting loads (as I recall 400gr bullets at about 1600fps at about 28,000 PSI) from Garrett (SP?) that were within Pedersoli allowable pressure specs. Do not know if they would regulate in your MkIV but other MkIV owners have used them on Safari, FYI. Website has testimonials on same. That may be your best bet for using MkIV as is which I suspect is what you should probably do, your desire to rechamber it not withstanding. For Elk inside 100yds you could do worse. You must be careful of what you are asking your MkIV to do for you. Even if you do not damage barrels you might easily shoot it off face (loose) ruining the not inexpensive gun.

I tried unsuccessfully to locate my Pedersoli printout listing the manufacturers specified allowable pressure ratings for the MkIV. I recall they were well below your quoted CIP spec, that is instead (of 31,900 PSI) it was around 28,000 or 29,000 PSI working loads per Pedersoli. Higher pressures were specified as not for routine use, regardless of your cited CIP cartridge pressure ratings. I do not know how Pedersoli can spec below governing body pressures (CIP?) unless Italy is not a CIP adherent country or the MkIV is only exported to the USA??? MkIV factory test PROOF LOAD pressure was about 25-30% (cannot remember exactly) above 28k PSI or in other words about 35-37,000 PSI or so as I recall. But the mfg rifle PROOF pressure per Pedersoloi was well below the CIP 450#2NE max pressure you cited (40,611 psi) and what A-Square lists. And this is before your proposed metal removal further reducing chamber safety margin. (I printed out all Pedersoli load information, spiral bound it, and of course cannot find it now when I need it to quote from for you...). I looked but could not find the PDF, downloaded from their website years ago, containing this information. You might search around http://www.davide-pedersoli.co...e-pedersoli.asp?l=en

If you do re-chamber the gun it needs to be so marked (stamped) with allowable loads as it sounds like you are creating a rifle which is nonstandard (SAAMI/A-Square) for cartridge (i.e. with a lower than spec pressure rating against the higher (CIP/A-Square) pressure rated 450#2NE cartridge in question. Since A-Square is apparently the governing body, and Art Alphin hates unmarked nonstandard chamberings, you do not want to end up in court on on a misadventure with "his" cartridge. Manufacturers advise against doing that (nonstandard chambering) and you could potentially be held liable for possible injuries resulting since as original owner the rifle would trace back to you. If someone put full pressure (max indicated pressure of 45,907 PSI per A-Square, well above Pedersoli ratings) loads into the rechambered rifle perhaps (probably?) a bad outcome (chamber/barrel bursting?) could result. Since we do not have a proof requirement in USA you might find a gunsmith who would actually chamber that. Liability seems too high. I am not a ballistics engineer and suggest you consult one before proceeding.

In summary while the 450#2 NE was developed by Ely for producing 450NE performance but with thicker brass and "lower" operating pressures (again 450#2 NE maximum average pressure as 35,559 CUP or piezo PSI as 39,913 PSI), both intended to solve extraction problems in the 450 with old thin sticky cases, that "lower" operating pressure was relative to the 450NE (latter with a allowable pressure maximum average over 44,000 PSI), not necessarily in guns designed for 45-70 loads with rated operating pressures of 28,000 PSI and proof pressures of 35,000 PSI or so. While the numbers do not look good to me, I am sure you can find smarter guys than me on the forum to comment on your proposal. Just be safe and use good judgement about what you are attempting.

I read somewhere and Ken Busch (KEBCO) also told me that Pedersoli barrels are high temperature brazed (sp?) not soldered. Consequently I was told a barrel separation is essentially non-repairable (except maybe at factory- but I doubt they would bother-probably just charge you for replacement barrels, since you "obviously" violated warranty). I have seen a MkIV 45-70 with a barrel separation at breech extending 6-9 inches towards muzzle without high pressure ammunition being used. Thus it is inadvisable to overpressure your MkIV in my opinion as I have already seen one barrel separation in the MkIV.
Also you need to distinguish between metric ton (1,000 kilograms or 2,200 lbs, not 2,000 lbs) and our ton (2,000lbs) on pressures. I do not know when UK went metric (MKS system) or if UK gun/ammunition makers bounced between lbs and kilos when stating pressure ratings/proof ratings in tons. Usually when a Brit says a ton he means metric ton; 1,000 kilos/2,200 lbs. On my proof stamps I assume the lower 2,000 lbs/ton for gun proof and the higher 2,200 ton for ammunition (where applicable) unless specified. Also remember that most PHs reportedly got away from using hammer guns against dangerous game since the hammers would self-cock and more than one hunter found a cocked double rifle after it was dragged through the brush or passed up to him by his porter. The MkIV doe not have a hammer lock/hammer safety so you have to keep everything away from those triggers. It might have bonafide rebounding hammers and firing pins...or not, so watch that also. Good luck. -RS

quote:

Originally posted by RS470NE:
A-Square Company Inc is listed as the Governing body for the 450#2NE (not CIP, at least as of 1996 the publishing date)

Since A-Square is apparently the governing body, and Art Alphin

......................................................


A-square is the governing body of what? They certainly do not make any rules that we must live by in the USA. A-square is nothing more that an ammo company, and not a well respected one I might add, who's rules mean nothing outside their doors!

.........................................................

Thank you all for your responses. I am glad to see that there are some familiar members from previous postings that are still willing to discuss this matter.

BigFiveJack, Thanks for the Perodeau tip.

MacD37, thank you for your warm welcome, most appreciated. Thank you also for your assesment of my argument. I am aware of the differences in C.U.P. and psi and that they are not interchangeable units, nor is there any conversion between the two. But the Kynoch value IS in psi. I was NOT aware of the difference between breech pressure and chamber pressure. From my rudementary understanding, I thought that the pressure inside a vessle is the same everywhere and acts equally in all directions, a simplified concept that I applied to a complex system. You have cleared up a great deal of confusion. Thank you very much.

N E 450 No2, thanks again for the information regarding your brother's pedersoli. I have noted this information from previous posts and I can only hope that my rifle will preform as admirably as your brother's. Great information, thanks for repeating it here.

RS470NE, thanks for all of your advice as well. I will have to pick up a copy of "Any Shot You Want" for my reference. Great information and I appreciate it.

I am not really interested in re-chambering my rifle for the 450 No.2 NE cartridge at this time. I am confident that I will be able to find a good 45-70 load that will regulate well in my rifle and be perfect for the kind of game I hunt. In truth, I really have no use for a 450 No.2 NE at this time, and it will be some time until I do. It is an exciting idea though. I honestly can't afford to do the conversion and wind up with barrels that won't regulate. I would rather have a good 45-70 than an expensive paper weight... or even more expensive medical bills to pay.

Again, I appreciate all of the great feedback.

Something still bothers me though.

Kynoch still lists the pressure for the 450. no.2 NE as 13 tons. Kynoch does not state if that is a breech pressure or not. Is it supposed to be understood that that value is a breech pressure? If it is a breech pressure, that would make sense, as the breech pressure is considerably lower than the chamber pressure. The 26000 psi is listed as the "average breech pressure" in one reference I have. But why would Kynoch list a breech pressure and not a chamber pressure? Wouldn't they be obligated to list the chamber pressure in accordance with C.I.P.?

Oh and one more question.
Thanks again everyone for your input, you have all helped to clear up a great deal of confusion. I do appreciate it.

Sorry, forgot to add my one more question to that last post.

Suppose that a Pedersoli Kodiak Mk.IV is converted from a 45-70 to a 450 No.2 NE. Wouldn't there have to be some modifications made to the stock to re-enforce it against the increased recoil to prevent cracking in the areas around the locks and such?

Just something that occured to me. Hadn't heard anyone discuss that aspect before.

Gcgeal,
First I want to welcome you to the forum. Congratulations on your first double rifle.
I can understand your interest in making your Pedersoli into a 450 no2. The pull of having a rifle in one of the classic calibers is a good thing however in this case I have to agree with 450no2. I think you can kill everything in North America with the 45-70. Bumping up the Pedersoli will give you a really big bump in recoil. I don’t know if you can tame it enough to enjoy shooting it. Your cost of dies and brass is higher. I would get the Pedersoli and try it with the 45-70 loads and see how it shoots. I think you will find 400gr bullets at 2000 fps quite snappy enough.
Bill

I had the same plan about 7 years ago. I took a Pedersoli to JJ Perodeau and he told me he wouldn't rechamber it for me. Said it might last for a few shots, or might blow up in my face. He said to just enjoy it as a 45-70. I ended up selling it to another AR member, when I bought my 470ne.
I still have the 450#2 dies and 50 brass I bought for the project.
ND

I have owned 2. Pedersoli double rifles were the best bargain in double rifles a few years ago. They are extremely well built and very nicely finished. They even have rolled trigger guards and you don't see that on much more expensive guns. The only fault is the crappy sights, but that can be easily fixed. They appear to have been built far to heavy and well for just a 45-70 and are pussycats when shot with any 45-70 load.

The first one I re-chamber to 450 NE #2 and fired it 72 rounds. I ordered 40 soft and 40 solids from Superior and sold 8 rounds with the rifle. I was lucky I suppose because when I order the ammo I told them to load it to 2150 fps and it shot perfect 50 yard groups in my rifle after a sight adjustment to raise POI. I killed a giraffe, a blue wildebeest and an eland with the rifle along with some whitetail deer and a hog. Last I heard this rifle was being used by a South African PH as a back up on buffalo hunts.

The rifle shot perfect for windage after the re-chamber but was 6 inches low. That rifle had a modified Ashley Outdoors peep sight that worked wonderfully on that gun and getting the POI up was easy.

Before the re-chamber I shot every factory 300 grain load I could find in the rifle and Garrett's heaviest Hammerhead load. Using the Garrett load I killed a coyote at about 75 yards. All loads I tried shot into the same group. I know that sounds like BS but it is true. I did not have to make any sight adjustments regardless of what load I shot in the rifle. Winchester 300 grain loads shot the best with a 4 shot group inside of 2 inches at 50 yards.

The second one I owned was a delux version with 20 bore barrels, sling and case. It performed exactly like the first. I was going to convert it also, but sold it for twice what I paid for it. It had the best wood and finish I have ever seen on a Pedersoli. With the shotgun barrels it was the best 20 bore shotgun I ever shot and was a joy to carry. It had the balance and handling of a fine English gun. Pedersoli should have build 20 bore shotguns as the balance and fit for me was like a custom shotgun.

They are great guns and my first one was re-chambered without serious issues other than a substantial increase in recoil. Having said that, your's may blow all to hell the first time you fire it or might not shoot into the same zip code. Each rifle is different.

Perry

P.S. At one time you could send your gun to Pedersoli and have 9.3 x 74 barrels fitted for about $2,700.00.

I also have a kodiak that has been re-chambered. I opted for 45-2-7/8" or 458 RCBS. The rifle shoots great. Mine likes the bullets at 2000fps. 400 or 500 shoot the same at 50 yds. Recoil is stiff with the 500 gr loads. I will be using it in Namibia this fall for PG. If you need more info let me know

Cheers

quote:

Originally posted by DPM:
I also have a kodiak that has been re-chambered. I opted for 45-2-7/8" or 458 RCBS. The rifle shoots great. Mine likes the bullets at 2000fps. 400 or 500 shoot the same at 50 yds. Recoil is stiff with the 500 gr loads. I will be using it in Namibia this fall for PG. If you need more info let me know

Cheers

The above may be a typo (2 7/8 inch =458 RCBS)
If not then what you have is a 45-100 Sharps! The 458 RCBS has a case length of 2 3/4 Inch ( 2.75 In) .
It is simply a matter of smantics more than anything else,in this case, excepting for load data for the two being quite different. However in the Kodiak it means little because the same load data used in the 45-100 having a slightly larger case (2.87 inch) would create less chamber pressure anyway than in the 458RCBS case that has a 2.75 in case, both being made from the 45 basic case. The 458 RCBS was a shortened 45-100 case but was re-named so folks wouldn't use the 458RCBS loads in some of the very old 45-100 black powder rifles which wouldn't be a good idea!

In any event the Pedersoli shoots great with the 458 RCBS and shows abslolutely no sign of over pressure, and will put 4 shots into a composit group of 3.5 inches at 100 yds off the bags, loaded with Speer 400 gr .458 bullets over 67.0 grs of 4064 powder from my rifle.

However, like PWN375 I need to up grade the sights on my Kodiak rifle.

Perry,

Thanks for your insight on the matter. I do appreciate it as you have first hand experience with this conversion. I truly do hope that my rifle will shoot as well as yours. Very cool.

Yes MACD37 is correct. 2-3/4 I must have had a brain fart.

Thanks

Just an FYI for anyone interested about the current loads used by Pedersoli for regulating the Kodiak Mk.IV. I sent them an email regarding the loads, and this is their response;

"For the Kodiak Mark IV grouping test we use commercial .45-70 Government ammunition,
Federal 299 grains with Vectan powder Sp3, 34 grains charge, pressure 1442 bars. We make tests also with Federal 400 grains with a charge of Vectan powder Tu 2000 of 43,2 grains which reaches a pressure of 1920 bars.

The proof tests are 30% higher than the recommended pressure ruled by the C.I.P (International Pressures Committee) for the .45-70 cartridge forecast 2,000 bars, about 29,000 C.U.P./P.S.I."

What's wrong with the 45/70? If you want more thump, can't you just upload the 45/70 to more modern ballistics? That seems safer then rechambering.

Does something like the 458RCBS really offer enough ballistically to be worth the upgrade?

He is trying to get a larger case to increase performance with out raising pressures.
Jacking up the 45/70 will not do this.
You should see the difference between a 45/70 and a 45/90 when both loaded to a 40000 psi max.
That little bit of extra space makes a big difference.

Cheers, John

When this issue came up a few years ago I thought it was decided that the weapon in question had the wrong twist rate?

Just get one of each caliber and you'll be covered!
45-70
9.3 x 74R
8 x 57 JRS


trio 002 by tarawa1943, on Flickr

These certainly must shoot better than the muzzle loading version of the same gun.
We spent months trying to develope a load for mine and just gave up.

Cheers, John

The Kodiak muzzleloader is a different animal altogether.

The muzzleloader is a very interestiing beast. I am still trying to work a up a load with mine. Got a new conical bullet mould from accurate molds. Cant wait to cast some.

I've been asked to scout for 450 #2 dies.
Anyone with a lead please PM me. Thanks.

On the Pedersoli muzzle loading double rifles, first try tightly patched roundball and Goex FFG
Be careful attempting to run them with heavy conicals, and make double damn sure to check the seating of the second shot against the powder charge to make sure it isn't upset from the powder from the recoil of the first shot.


BigFiveJack check with NitroDave for 450no2NE dies.



Cheers
Tinker