If you had a choice in calibers of 50-140
or 45-120 which one would it be.
If a smith was to convert shot guns does he have to have a manufacture license.

45-70...or 50-90....unless you are shooting black powder any larger case is worthless. But they do look cool!

None of the above.

.470 NE

blaser93
I would ask you this, what do you want the rifle for.
If Africa is on the menu then 500grains is correct, 470, 450 3 1/4", 450 No2 or even one of the 450/400's, in other words a REAL African calibre.

If just playing around in North America [nothing wrong with that, a double is a GREAT NA hunting gun] then a 45/70 would be hard to beat. You could get a little more velocity with the 45/120 case.

Then I would ask how much money is this going to cost?
For North American use, [and use in Africa as well] the 9,3x74R is a HARD calibre to beat.
A Chapuis in 9,3x74R is a GREAT hunting gun.

Yes I know about a real Double rifle ,some day I will own one.I found someone building these calibers for 2500 dollars.

50-140,50-90,45-120,45-110,45-90,45-70,and 405 win

If those are the only calibers you can choose from I would take the 405 Win.

450-400

For strictly North Ameican use I would go with the 45/70 or the 405 Win. I would ask the maker if his double was OK to use with Garrett, Bufffalo Bore, or Cor-Bon 45/70 ammo.

quote:

Originally posted by blaser93:
Yes I know about a real Double rifle ,some day I will own one.I found someone building these calibers for 2500 dollars.

50-140,50-90,45-120,45-110,45-90,45-70,and 405 win

Buy him a reamer for 500 NE 3" or 450 No. 2 and have a real gun rather than a half-breed.

Is there a reason why he can only do those calibers?

www.gunsamerica.com see add by Jason Simpkins in the double rifle section, he's building on certain shotgun actions and wants to use calibers of 20,000 PSI or less.

I got an e-mail from him and he uses the phrase "under 10 tons".

Shotgun receivers are not heat treated, nor reinforced for rifle high pressures, so these are to be kept down. Here's a side by side pic of 2 FN-Browning B25 actions (L : 12 ga - R : 9,3x74R). While starting of as a 20 ga. sized, unmachined receiver, a rifle action is specially heat treated, has thicker walls and bottom. Also, internal gas venting channels are machined behind each firing pin holes, to funnel gasses sideways, through hollow gas screws, and away from the shooter's face, in case of a ruptured case.

quote:

Originally posted by blaser93:
Yes I know about a real Double rifle ,some day I will own one.I found someone building these calibers for 2500 dollars.

50-140,50-90,45-120,45-110,45-90,45-70,and 405 win

If those are the choices you have, I'd get the 405 Winchester, then promptly have someone re-chamber it to 450/400 3"! With the 405's .411 bore dia, it would be a great re-chamber job with only a little extractor work! Then you would have a real double rifle, at least in chambering! If you want to leave it 405 Win, at least you can buy factory ammo for it!

blaser93
Think about this.
For less than $5,000 you can get a REAL double rifle, a Chapuis 9,3x74R.

The 9,3 is just a suitable for North American game as the calibers you mentioned, AND it is much more suited to BIG African game.

Plus you will have a double that will hold its value.

NE450No2,

While I understand what you are saying $5,000 is a considerable sum to many of those that would like a double.

I built my first doubles. None of them could be considered best guns but all of them were quite functional. The point is if you can do some/most of the work on your own you can have a DR for about $1,500. That is a far way from $5,000. It is also much more likely to allow some guy's to get the double they always wanted. Will they be collectable?..no. Will they be considered a best gun?..no. Will my 9.3x74r kill the same as a Chapius?..yep.

Please don't take this as an endorsement of the guns listed above but lets also not forget that maybe this is the only way a person can get into a DR right now.

Bill

P.S.- Andre if you do some looking around you can find some actions that are the exact same both in dimensions and heat treatment..such as Merkel's. Just write to the company and ask them yourself.

I know Bill. Then the choice boils down to :

a. 2 actions properly hardened ;
b. among them, one with sustantially thicker walls, though more expensive.

14 years ago, I opted for "b", bought the handmade FN-Browning in 9,3x74R and never regretted it. BTW, it's still made in small numbers by FN's custom shop under the CCS 25 name (not to be confused with the present CCS 525, which is a less expensive version based on a hardened 525 shotgun action).

Andre,

Not sure I understand what you are saying with your choices above.

What I was getting at is there are companies out there that build both shotguns and DR's on the same action. Merkel is one of them. So in essence it's not a rifle on a shotgun action but a shotgun on a rifle action. The actions are the same dimensions and hardened the same way. This for them is simply easier because then they don't need to have 2 separate products they cans tart with one line and build either rifle or shotgun.

There seems to be many of the continental makers that were like this. However the English really seemed to take allot out of their shotgun actions (in excess steel) to make them the superb game gun they are. This lightened them considerably and yet they are still plenty strong for a shotgun.

Bill

Both shotguns and rifles start from the same rough forged action. For a shotgun, excess weight is trimmed off to improve balance as extra-strength isn't necessary considering the low pressures involved. For a double rifle, the bottom isn't hollowed out, walls are left thicker (see pic) and heat treatment is different. The result is a condiderable increase in weight + heavier bbls. too, that might not be handy for a fast swinging shotgun. Some gunmakers treat their actions the same for both types of guns but harden more for rifles. The end result, is that we are comparing a hardened but light shotgun action to a heavy one meant for a rifle. FN-Browning (and the best English manufacturers) are reputed for making doubles which will remain tight long after their competitors. My rifle has fired 540 shots so far, is still tight, has to be "forced" open and closes like a vault. The opening key hasn't moved from its, slightly off to the right, original position (an indication that the sliding bolt isn't bottoming out). BTW, compare this with some competitors... True those 20 ga sized double rifles weight more that a 12 ga shotgun.

First I was referring to sxs guns. As that is what the original thread was about. Second when I said Merkel makes them fromt he same action I'm not talking about a forging. I'm talking about finished hardened actions. They simply pull an action and if the next gun is to be a DR then thats what gets built on it. If it's supposed to be a shotgun that is what gets built. No further work NO differences between the 2 actions at all...none.

As far as remaining tight as much of that has to do with care as initial quality. You can take a first class DR and in less than 100 shots have it off face. I have a homebuilt 30-40 krag on a Sauer action (originally shotgun) that has over 1,500 rounds through it and is still tight and on face. So that argument holds little to no merit.

Bill

I don't know whether or not his first question was answered but, he asked if the .45-120 would do. Since the only real difference in the case between a .45-120 and a .450 3 1/4" NE is the rim thickness, I would imagine that a .45-120 loaded with a sufficient charge of smokeless and a good .458 - 500 gr. SP of FMJ would do anything the .450 NE would do. I have one (.45-120) in a Ruger #1 and loaded with 96 gr. of WW785 or equivelant charge and a 500 gr. FMJ will kill anything on the planet and quite handily.

I beleive the base size is significantly different as well. The 45-120 is about 20 grains of water smaller. Though as you say in an action like the Ruger #1 that bit of case size doesn't really mater as it can be made up for in pressure. However ina DR with identicle loads the 45-120 would create more pressure due to the smaller case.

Bill

quote:

Originally posted by Masterifleman:
I don't know whether or not his first question was answered but, he asked if the .45-120 would do. Since the only real difference in the case between a .45-120 and a .450 3 1/4" NE is the rim thickness, I would imagine that a .45-120 loaded with a sufficient charge of smokeless and a good .458 - 500 gr. SP of FMJ would do anything the .450 NE would do. I have one (.45-120) in a Ruger #1 and loaded with 96 gr. of WW785 or equivelant charge and a 500 gr. FMJ will kill anything on the planet and quite handily.

Masterrifleman, I think you better re-think the statement that you made above in bold! There is a great deal of difference between the 45-120 case,and the 450NE3 1/4" case
The 45-120 is simply a long 45-70, with no other changes, while the 450NE 3 1/4" is a far larger case.

The 450NE 3.25" ......45-120

Case length 3.25"......Case length 3.25"

case head dia .548"....Head dia .506"


Rim dia .626"......Rim dia .597"


Neck dia .479".....Neck dia .490"


450NE Case capacity (ccs) 8.81 (grs water) 136.04
45-120 Case capacity (cc's) 7.32 (Grs Water) 113.04

To get the same speed from the 45-120 with the same bullet as you get with the 450NE 3.25" you have to generate far higher chamber pressure. They'r as different as apples to oranges. Stand the two cartridges side by side and the difference can be seen from accross the room! In a rifle like the Ruger No1 the pressures are not a problem, but in a double rifle they matter a great deal!
.........................................

Mac is right, I think you got the 45-120 mixed up with the Basic 50 brass which is 50-140 now that if I'm not mistiken is close to the 500 nitro.

505ED

Think about it...
$2500 for a double rifle of dubious strength... ok for pigs and deer...
Or $5000 for a double rifle [ say a Chapuis 9,3x74R], suitable for ALL game with a good resale value, and no worry about strength issues.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Soverns:
450-400

.450 N.E. 3 1/4!!!
No doubt.

Unless I am mis-reading the original post, this gentleman can AFFORD the shotgun conversion, not a $5K DR...period. A friend is, as we speak, building a DR 45-90 on a spanish 12ga frame. Monoblock w/crossbolt. It has already been "proofed" with a 500gr bullet at 2200fps...ten rounds per barrel, and shows no signs of an issue with that load. He will regulate with the 350gr Hornady at 2200fps and "go happy". I already have a 45-120 Ruger #2, so I would go that way. In fact, if the Remington Spartan ever shows up I will do that to both of them.
Heck, if money were not an object I would suggest a Searcy in .500NE 3" like mine.
JMHO

Rich

if this is your budget... great, welcome to the world of double rifles... I'd get the 405, ammo is getting easy to find and not terribly expensive to shoot, unless you just have a desire for the older cartridges... get a gun that performs and is fun to shoot, that's the goal...

be advised" the twist rate for black powder cartridges is different than for nitro cartridges.
also, the chap who claims he can see the difference between a 45 -120 and a 45 x 3 1/4 across the room must have binocular / micrometer eyes. if you'll look at the dimensions given they are only a few thousands.
get them both, put them side by side and see for yourself.

AN AFTERTHOUGHT FOR BLAZER 93

IF YOUR BUDGET IS $2,500 GO AHEAD AND GET YOUR FIRST DOUBLE RIFLE.
AT THAT KIND OF MONEY YOU CAN ALWAYS SELL IT TO SOMEONE AT A GUNSHOW - THAT IS A CHEAP PRICE FOR ANY DOUBLE RIFLE THAT WILL SHOOT OK.

GET IT IN A HAMMERLESS ACTION AND WITH EJECTORS IF OFFERED. ANY OF THE CALIBERS RECOMMENDED BY THE OTHERS ARE OK, BUT FOR FULL NITRO THE VERY, VERY LOW PRESSURE OF THE 450 #2 IS HARD TO BEAT. THE 450 X 3 1/4 IS ABOUT 50 % HIGHER PRESSURE IF I REMEMBER CORRECTLY.

ANYWAY GO FOR IT !!!

quote:

Originally posted by tomo577:
be advised" the twist rate for black powder cartridges is different than for nitro cartridges.
also, the chap who claims he can see the difference between a 45 -120 and a 45 x 3 1/4 across the room must have binocular / micrometer eyes. if you'll look at the dimensions given they are only a few thousands.
get them both, put them side by side and see for yourself.

TOMO577, As I sit in my office typeing this the two cartridges are standing in my cartridge collection across my office, and they are easy to see them as very different cartridges! I think if you can't see the difference between them, my suggestion to you is an appointment with your eye doctor! Judgeing from your habitual use of upper case in your posts,as the quote below, I'd say you think we need bynocs, or you don't have an understanding of computer ediquette! Example below! I do agree with the quote below, in content! Other than the upper case,which is considered to be yelling at whom ever you are posting, and your statement that the 450NE 3 1/4" generates 50% more pressure than the 450#2! The 450NE 3.25" developes 17.00 tons, while the 450#2 developes 13.00 tons. That is hardly 50% higher.

quote:

AN AFTERTHOUGHT FOR BLAZER 93

IF YOUR BUDGET IS $2,500 GO AHEAD AND GET YOUR FIRST DOUBLE RIFLE.
AT THAT KIND OF MONEY YOU CAN ALWAYS SELL IT TO SOMEONE AT A GUNSHOW - THAT IS A CHEAP PRICE FOR ANY DOUBLE RIFLE THAT WILL SHOOT OK.

GET IT IN A HAMMERLESS ACTION AND WITH EJECTORS IF OFFERED. ANY OF THE CALIBERS RECOMMENDED BY THE OTHERS ARE OK, BUT FOR FULL NITRO THE VERY, VERY LOW PRESSURE OF theTHE 450 #2 IS HARD TO BEAT. THE 450 X 3 1/4 IS ABOUT 50 % HIGHER PRESSURE IF I REMEMBER CORRECTLY.

ANYWAY GO FOR IT !!!

I don't know how far it is across your rooms, but mine are not large enough to need bynocs for anything, unless I'm looking out the window. I'm looking through 70 yr old eyes, and even I can see the difference!

Hmmm. The CIP max average chamber pressure for the .450 No. 2 and .450 3.25" NE are 40,610 and 44,236 PSI respectively. The 3.25" generates 9% more chamber pressure than the No. 2. The old British base crusher standards of 13 tons and 17 tons respectively measured bolt thrust, not chamber pressure. The 3.25" generates 30% more BaseCUP than the No. 2.

If Big Five Jack is correct about this guy limiting his cartridge selection in order to keep the pressures below 20,000 PSI, then Simpkins doesn't know what he's doing. He includes the .405 Winchester which has a max pressure of 35,500 PSI.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."