I'm curious, I've owned two 470's and two 500's and like the 500 over the 470 but don't dismiss the latter at all.

I had a lower back fusion last summer and I'm wondering about a 450 3 1/4" double. As I would like to use a double for elephant but I'm not sure if I will still have that much of a difference in recoil.

My other choices would be my 416 Rigby or a 458 Win Mag. now with Hornady Superformance ammo. However, I guess I'm still in about the same recoil vicinity with all.

Am I ahead of the game with the 450 or is there no real difference in recoil? I'd appreciate your opinions on comparison of recoil etc. from those of you that have shot a 450 and some of the others I've mentioned. Appreciate your input.

Purely my opinion and based solely on my subjective experiences with absolutely nothing more to support it but ...

I've shot all three out of double rifles of similar weights. The difference in recoil, while there, is not so much less with the 450 as to make a big difference.

I agree that with similar weight rifles, the 416 and 458 are about the same as the bunch above.

Even though you didn't ask, i'll add that the 450/400 is substantially less recoil.

I've had 2 DR's in .450 3-1/4"NE. and fired a .470, .500NE, and .450-.400NE.

Based on my limited experience, I would say that, in rifles of approriate weight and that fit you well, the .450NE would or should have slightly less recoil than the others.


If you want to take a reall step down in recoil, go for the .450-.400NE. Alot of performance, not much pain.

Well here's the deal..

A .470 NE fires a 500 gr slug @ 2150 FPS. A modern .450 NE fires a 500 Gr slug @ 2150 FPS. So physics don't lie, at similar weights the recoil will be identical.

One more vote for the .450-400 if you need a reduction in recoil. But this might be some happy news for you. I have a three level fusion in my C-spine and while it took a while for everything to heal up I had no issues within a year and have no issues now 6 years later shooting my .470 NE.

I would say it depends on the weight (and configuration) of the double. My M.K. Owen (450 x 3 1/4) is substantially heavier than my other doubles and the recoil is much less than the 500NE (Blaser) as well as the 500/416 (K gun). The 500/416 seems to me to give a "sharper" recoil.
Peter.

quote:

Originally posted by surestrike:
Well here's the deal..

A .470 NE fires a 500 gr slug @ 2150 FPS. A modern .450 NE fires a 500 Gr slug @ 2150 FPS. So physics don't lie, at similar weights the recoil will be identical.

This maybe true but a waded load will adjust those physics and reduce recoil.
What about bullet diameter?

On the "weight of Rifle" side of recoil, you often hear of the 425 as having heavy recoil yet with mine and its heavy profiled barrel it is quite comfortable to shoot where as with a PH friends 458Win with its light barrel it is quite a rouge.
Barrel weight is a big factor in felt recoil in my opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by surestrike:
Well here's the deal..

A .470 NE fires a 500 gr slug @ 2150 FPS. A modern .450 NE fires a 500 Gr slug @ 2150 FPS. So physics don't lie, at similar weights the recoil will be identical.

If you are going to quote physics, make sure you enter ALL the data. Velocity and bullet weight are only part of what's needed to calculate recoil.
You also need to account for bullet diameter, as well as powder charge weight and burn rate etc.

Guys thanks for the info. and surestrike thanks for the moral support.

OK, I've got a CZ 458 Win Mag that I was shooting up to 3 weeks before my surgery with Hornady factory loads-not the new Superformance-but the ??485 grain at 22?? don't recall exactly. Now I think this guy is barrel light and these loads are not bad at all.

Can you guys give me a comparrison?

I'm up on the 500 vs 500 X 2150 but as was stated I'm thinking-also-bore diameter will have something to do with that also.

I wish I could go back to my beloved 500 3" and who knows if I turn out as good as surestrike maybe I can someday.

Appreciate somemore in put on the 458 recoil comparrison, I'm hoping this will be in the ballpark with the 450, didn't dawn on me to mention it before.

Why not put a mercury kick stop or some such recoil reducer in the CZ, or do the same in your 500NE?
Peter.

A 15 pound 470 will solve your problem, but so will a 450-400 at 9 1/2. I was out shooting mine yesterday, after my .450 on Friday, and it was like going to a .22, sort of.

Assuming the weight is appropriate for calibre:

A .500 is a step up in recoil and performance from the .450-.476 crowd. The .450-.476 crowd will be pretty much the same for all intents and purposes with regard to recoil (and performance) assuming they are similarly weighted. Apropriately weighted .450/400s are a step down again in performance and recoil. It would give you a recoil advantage that I can't see in the .450. I would assume it would be fine, but I'll let others weigh in on the .450/400 as the elephant gun as I have no experience in that matter.

Brett

My concern with the 450/400 is this enough gun to turn an elephant if you miss the brain with the first shot?

Boddington and others say the 450-470 on up are and I'm OK with that but don't recall anyone addressing this with the 450/400.

4 5 0 4 0 0 is code for e d i c i u s.

A buddy and I have fired 470, and 450 doubles side by side, and Holland & Holland 500/465 and 500/450 side by side, on the same day.

In every case we felt the 450,s had less felt recoil. Cannot explain it. And this is with shooting the same powder in each.

If you use RL 15 instead of one of the slower powders you will notice a reduction in recoil as well.

On the 450/400. First I anything I could do with a scoped 416 bolt rifle I could do with a scoped 450/400. And I would much rather hunt with the double.

I have shot elephant with the 450 No2, the 450/400 and the 9,3x74R.

There is no doubt that the 450/470 is a bigger hammer than the 450/400.

But I would have no problems hunting elephants for the rest of my life with a 450/400.

Elephants have been shot in the head with a 600 and even the 700 Nitro and not been knocked down.

I di not depend on power to make up for a bad shot...

On recoil...

The 450/400 recoils a lot less than a 450/470.
It is more comfortable to shoot, and recovery time is much less as well.

If for any reason recoil becomes an issue, then the 450/400 is the way to go.

I think a scoped 450/400 is the best choice for a "client" to use.

The only exception is, for a person that will be hunting a LOT of elephants, and CAN TAKE the extra recoil...

If you are lucky enough to hunt elephants when you get up in years, then you will most likely eventually go to a 450/400.

If you read and anaylize everything Taylor wrote, I think you will see that the 450/400 was his favorite.

My 450 No2 is my favorite hunting rifle of all time. it has 28" barrels, weighs @11.5 lbs, and fits me better that any rifle I have ever shot.

But there will come a time that the rifle is too heavy and kicks to much, then I will go to a scoped 450/400.

I have also used my 450/400 for deer, wild pigs, black bear, and 2 caribou in Alaska, and all of this with iron sights.

My wife took her cape buff in Zim with the scoped 450/400, and I used it with the scope for my lion as well.

If I could have only one double rifle it would be a scoped Heym in 450/400.

Instructions for guy with bad back:

Step 1. Call Dale Nygaard at Heirloom Arms.

Step 2. Purchase a 9.2 pound Chapuis SXS double in .375 H&H brand new for $7500.

Step 3. Load with 300 grain Barnes flat nose solids.

Step 4. Shoot elephant.

Step 5. Stand in front of dead elephant shaking hands with guide for pictures!

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
anything I could do with a scoped 416 bolt rifle I could do with a scoped 450/400.

N E 450 No2:

The 450/400 is indeed a great cartridge but it ain't no .416 Rigby or .500/.416!

David, David, David...

Why go to all that trouble when I have one in the safe downstairs? LOL I know you already know...cuz it's to damn beautiful and if I sell it I can get a PH type gun and have $$$'s left over.

NE 450 No2,

Thanks for your input this is really what I had been looking for, experience and opinion. I did reread Taylor again just last night and your correct he's just about giddy over the 450/400.

So I guess with a 458, 416 and 375 or a single shot 450/400 for back up I'm good to go.

Tim:

According to Graeme Wright's book that I loaned you, most of the 450/400 rifles with 24 inch barrels "seem to regulate at the 2000 fps mark" with a 400 grain bullet. It is indeed a wonderful cartridge and has taken many elephants but it is not a great deal more powerful than the .375 which replaced it and we know how John Taylor felt about the .375. Either a 450 or a .450/400 would be good guns but for a guy with a bad back, I think I would go with the .450/.400 or the .375 over the .450. Both of these guns would have less recoil.

My 450/400 regulates at 2200fps...

However when you drive a 40 cal solid totally through "something", it really does not matter if it is going 2000 fps or 2400fps...

If you are shooting Softs, if you have the proper bullet the same applies.

There were a lot of Jeffery rifles, regulated for the Tropical load,[55 grains of cordite instead of the "regular load" of 60 gr Cordite] which in 24" barrels most likely did between 1950 fps and 2000 fps...

In all the old books I have read, NOBODY EVER SAID ANYTHING BAD ABOUT THE "KILLING POWER" of the 450/400...

Most everyone that used one really liked how well it performed...

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
My 450/400 regulates at 2200fps...

N E 450 No2:

You are blessed with an unusual gun! I was wondering, does it have 26 or 28 inch barrels?

I am not sure what the current CIP spec is but the Kynoch web site shows 2125 fps out of a 30 inch barrel for the 450/400 which would seem to suggest that Graeme Wright was correct that a gun with a 24 inch barrel would regulate around 2000 fps.

My 400 has 26" barrels.