Inspected a 450/400 Sabatti with the X through the last number at the Buda, TX Cabelas today. both barrels had the dreaded "dremel" regulation. It was somewhat subtle and you had to look for it. The muzzles were completely round. the rifling was ground flat but it did not compromise the thickness of the barrel so the muzzles are round but the rifling was ground to the bottom of the grooves.

The "closeouts" are priced from $3799.99 to $4499.99 for new guns either EJ or EXT. The closeouts do not come with their 30 day guarantee I was told

That is not good.

I really thought they had sorted this out and everything was good - and I was hoping it was as well.

It was my hope also and the conspiracist in me is hoping that they are not deliberately being more careful with the grinding to escape detection on casual inspection (cabela's spot inspections?). Not a confidence builder in either case.

Post a pic; if you grind just the rifling and leave the bore intact, the gas won't escape and make the bullet yaw, like they intended so what will this accomplish? As for the "X" "through" the last number; the X is not supposed to be stamped onto the serial number. I am really confused now. What was the actual number? If it is below about 750, it is one of the original group of possible ground muzzles and not a "post grind" manufacture. Could it be one of the old ones, being sold now? I hope it is. No offense intended, but reports, with only partial information provided, serves just to cloud what is already a situation shrouded in confusion.

I did not notice the serial number just that the last number, an 8 had an X through it. Since it was not my gun I didn't take a picture of it and I wouldn't know how to post it. If you are curious you can call the gun library and have them look at it and describe the serial number to you. The person showing it to me agreed that the rifling has been ground one on side of each barrel. Like I said the barrel thickness was not compromised so the muzzles retain their roundness. I'm not an engineer but if the lands are ground off to the level of the grooves but no more, gas can still escape through where the lands used to be.

It wouldn't worry me if the crowns were round
or whatever, if the barrels have been ground
in any way shape or form, the gun should not
be sold.

As has been shown, it damages Cabelas, Sabattis reputations where in the end, everybody loses.

I think Cabelas will sell all returned rifles until they end up with people who either never shoot them, or don't know how to, and don't know the difference. Problem solved. Remember, the vast majority of Sab buyers have never heard of AR.
It is a federal no-no to deface a serial number so I am definitely confused; I will call them as I want to know what is going on.

If you call you can ask them about the condition of the rifling at the end of the barrels. They are ground at the 3:00 position on the left and 9:00 position on the right as you look down towards the breech.

I've been at three or four Cabela's around the country over the last month or so. All have had a few Sabatti's on the close out rack at reduced price but have also had a few on the regular rack at full price. During my conversations with the library folks it sounds like they are trying to get rid of old inventory i.e. guns that were around when the dremel work was done or were dremel'ed. None of the close outs I saw were dremel'ed and none of the new one's were either. Unfortunately, the way they are doing things doesn't instill any confidence in the "new" guns. I couldn't get a solid answer why some where close outs and others, which looked the same, were not.

Has anyone received an explanation why only some are close outs?

Eric

The exasperated salesman I talked to said that the price was set by corporate when these were dumped on them, they did not ask for these guns for their store. I suspect corporate took the returns and sent them to the stores as close outs. I think if you push them the price will be at the lowest close out price. Some prices have dropped since midweek to $3799.99 from $4499.99.

quote:

Has anyone received an explanation why only some are close outs?

Yep, as in the above post, Head Office / Corporate
decided to get rid of all the returns at reduced price, no warranty, no come back, no returns.

And be done with them once and for all.

Well this is crappy news. I bought a .470 NE ejector from Cabelas 10 days ago for $4500 marked down from $5900 and now I see the same gun at some stores selling for $3800.

I inspected my gun very carefully and nothing seemed amiss except for the fact that the serial number did not have an X. Barrel was exactly 24", no evidence of dremeling and the gun was brand new wrapped in bubble wrap. The serial number is in the 800s.

The gun library manager showed me on his
computer that the gun was $5 over cost but did emphasize that there are no returns. I figured I would take a gamble at $4500 but seeing them marked down further to $3800 makes me wonder.

I think I will call him tomorrow and see what the deal is.

I would be strongly suspect of anything where the policy is no returns--for any price.
Cal

I am curious about the serial numbers of these guns. When I bought mine I was indeed told that the "X" at the end of serial number was indicative of one that was made correctly.

My serial number starts with "CAB". How do all of the guns out there start with "CAB"?

Eric

I think that I may have found the answer to the "X" serial number question. I called USSG who imported the guns from Sabatti. The customer service rep said that the "X" denotes that the
gun was a demo or sent in for repairs. She said that the "X" was placed on the guns by USSG and not Sabatti.

This makes sense in that all of the Sabattis I have seen the "X" is separate and distinct from the rest of the serial number.

For reference all of the Sabattis from Cabelas have the prefix CAB.

My serial number in the low 800s (but is still one of the highest I have seen) was imported in July 2011. My gun does not have an "X".

I think what happened is that when the regulation issue came to light the guns brought back to Cabelas were returned to the importer and then they were either fixed by USSG or sent back to Italy. The repaired guns were returned to Cabela's "fixed" and resold. At what time and what serial number they stopped dremeling the barrels I don't know. This is just supposition but it fits with what I have seen and read.

Cabelas must have made the decision a while ago to stop importing Sabattis and with the slow turnover they are still sitting on the shelves today.

I bought mine 11 days ago at the then marked down price of $4500 and then a few days ago they were reduced to $3800. I spoke to the manager of the gun library where I live and they are going to refund me the difference.

In summary I don't think finding an "X" gun is necessarily a guarantee that the regulation was done the "right way" but more an indicator that the gun was sent in at some point because of an issue.

That explains a lot; hell, for that price it would pay to get one and re-regulate it if it doesn't shoot. Mechanically they are fine.

does the crown look like these? If so.... Take it back!

rxgremlin: "...USSG said X denotes that the gun was a demo. OR sent in for repairs." " X was placed on guns by USSG and not by Sabatti." "All Sabatti from Cablelas have prefix CAB." "I don't think finding an X is necessarily a guarantee that the regulation was done the "right way," but more an indication that the gun was sent in at some point because of an issue."

ELeeten: "How do all of the guns out there start with CAB?" Simply put, they don't, though most of them do. Earlier Sabatti double rifles that were sold by Cabelas, had only long serial numbers; no prefix of any kind, and no X at end of serial numbers. I own one from that group, though it has no issues. I am convinced that most of the ones that so many people like to talk about now, the ones with muzzle grinding issues, came from that first initial group. The next group of Sabatti rifles that Cabelas ordered had the "CAB" prefix prior to the serial number; I was told by Cabelas that they requested the "CAB" prefix, denoting Cabelas. The earliest one I have from this group is serial numbered CAB75. The last one I bought, and the most recent, only a short time ago, one of the ones now on sale, I had shipped from a Cabelas store in another state to Cabelas store in state I live in. I told the clerk at the Cabelas store exactly how to inspect the rifling lands in both muzzles, what to look for in the way of filed or ground lands, and I told him that if he could assure me that they were sound, that I would buy it. He didn't seem to have a problem with this offer at all, and gave me email message indicating that he inspected the muzzles, as I asked, and told me what he saw; he said NOTHING AT ALL about no returns, no warranty, no come back, no returns.
For a good long time, maybe a year, I have noticed that Cabelas was not restocking Sabatti rifles in certain calibers they once had, but no longer had in Stock. That, and other indicators, told me that they were probably not intending to continue with the Sabatti brand.
I was told by Cabelas, a good long time ago, that once they learned about the problems with the muzzle grinding issues on some Sabatti rifles, that they, Cableas, grouped together all those rifles, or what they thought were all of them, and shipped them back to Sabatti for repair, re-barreling, or a refund, whatever it took to make the problem right. Later, I learned that more than likely, they in fact, shipped them to their importer, USSG. Being familiar with USSG, and having no confidence in them, I was skeptical about what would happen as a result of this transaction. So, now we learn that it was, indeed, USSG that placed the X at the end of the serial numbers; not Sabatti. No surprise there, for me! It wouldn't surprise me either, if Sabatti had never seen any of these ones Cabellas returned for correction, but USSG "took care" of the problem. In my mind, our poster rxgremlin has it 100% correct in what he said about the X at end of serial numbers. Too often, we see way too many forums spreading rumors based on myth, rumor, hearsay, misinformation; not on good solid proof of any kind for their allegations. Worst yet, we see way too many guys anxious to accept such data, assuming it to be factual; this is just one case of that.
-----------------------------

I happen to like Sabatti rifles; think highly of them, IF they have not had the regulation "fine tuned" using a file or grinder to remove tops of one or more rifling lands on one or more sides of muzzles, attempting to "steer" bullets in one direction or another. Thus, I now own five Sabatti rifles, one single shot in .30-06, and four of the larger models, double rifles, in different big bore calibers, none of which have any "issues" and none with the dreaded muzzle grinding; all shooting quite well, well regulated. That is partly due to sheer luck, and partly due to fact that once I learned of the muzzle grinding issue, I examined all future purchases with magnification lens under good light before the purchase. All of my Sabatti rifles, I have customized to some extent. Over the past several years, I have tried to keep abreast of what was happening with Sabatti, its importer, USSG, and the sole U.S. retailer, Cabelas.

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
I would be strongly suspect of anything where the policy is no returns--for any price.
Cal

You see Cal we agree once more!
Damn! I just felt the earth move!
................................................................

Thanks, Mac.
When I learn to post pics here I will show all my new toy--Jack Lott's .500 nitro Watson Bros.
Cheers, mate.
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
That explains a lot; hell, for that price it would pay to get one and re-regulate it if it doesn't shoot. Mechanically they are fine.

Who would you suggest do the re regulation and what should a owner expect to spend? Would the work be guaranteed?

I thought there was a problem with how they
were made in that they couldn't be re
regulated by normal means.

505G: "I thought there was a problem with how they were made in that they couldn't be re
regulated by normal means."
----------------------------

505G, you are confusing Sahatti doubles with the Browning o/u rifle that Mac has, that has ribs brazed together.
A good long time ago, on this site, it was mentioned that Sabatti doubles MAY have ribs brazed (based on hearsay, myth, rumor, etc), thus making it difficult to impossible to re-regulate them, if so. Also, about that same time, it was mentioned on this site, that jj said that he would no longer do any re-regulation of Sabatti doubles, because he "thought" they had no mid point regulation wedge. Soon after that, I spoke with him about this, and found that he did, indeed, make that statement. I think that he "thought" they had no mid point wedge, rather than knowing for certain that they didn't have one, due to fact that he didn't fully remove the rib(s) to see; only loosened rib(s) enough to do the re-regulation. Anyway, soon after that, I posted on this site that I had re-regulated a Sahatti for a close friend, and found that the
ribs were not brazed; were simply, correctly, soft soldered, making it very easy to remove them. JJ was, of course, correct, in that no mid point regulation wedge was on Sabatti, so I simply made one from scratch, installed it, and re-regulated the rifle, using W. Ellis Brown's methods, learned from Tech college gunsmithing class he taught, "converting double shotguns to double rifles," prior to his writing his book on same subject, now in its 2nd edition. Since that time, I have now done a second Sabatti too, for another close friend (no, I am retired, and wont' do any for anyone else, so don't ask). I think that jj has a re-regulation routine that he follows, charging very reasonable fees for it, and that he simply doesn't want to spend the extra time it takes to make and install the mid point wedge---doing so would increase price he would have to charge, so he must feel that it is not worth his time to do that extra work. All of what I am saying, of course, applies only to Sabatti rifles with good sound barrels; not any with the butchered muzzles with ground away rifling lands.

Interesting too, that nobody has mentioned that a good number of classic old double rifles, especially German ones I have seen and inspected/re-regulated, in my experience through the years anyway, had no mid point regulation wedge either, having only the muzzle wedge. So, in this respect, the Sabatti with no mid point wedge is no different from numerous other ones made around the world over a good number of years. Yes, many have had mid point wedges, but many others did not.

Doubleriflejack; Well said and true,
Who would do the regulation? I can and would do them but for now, only for myself.
How much should it cost? $1000 including ammo and re-bluing. It ain't rocket science to do. It is soldering in a fixture.

I was back at the cabelas in buda yesterday. The previously described 450/400 is still there. The serial number is CAB428 with a faint X over the 8. They have another 450/400 that is obviously ground. The two 50O NE they have have good rifling, I did not measure the barrel length and no X. One serial number is in the 600's and the other in the 900's just in case someone is looking for one with a good muzzle. All deluxe models are discounted to $3799.99 regardless of the price on their site. The 450/400 showing pending in the gun library has a good crown, no grinding, 24" barrels and serial in the 600's. That one is sold.

Just bought a 470 from them this weekend. The muzzles look clean and I was told I had a 1 yr warrranty and could bring it back within 30 days. The regulation target showed only 1/2" deviation. List price was $3799. I offered $3200 and they took it! I have to get ammo now and shoot it, hopefully I got a good one!

Congrats. That is a screaming deal! Please come back and let us know how it works out for you.

Ammo is on order. I will report when I have had a chance to shoot it. Also the ser # on mine is 690 with no X

I hope it shoots as well as the target indicates. That's a heckuva cost savings on the gun.

How does it fit you? Are you planning on using iron or adding some sort of optic? You may want to take another look at the "recoil" pad especially on a .470.

Hoping that everything works out good for you and that you end up with a solid gun.

Eric

Gun fits me like a glove. I will keep the sights but may change the pad

quote:

505G:

"I thought there was a problem with how they were made in that they couldn't be re
regulated by normal means."
----------------------------

[QUOTE]Originally posted by doubleriflejack:

505G, you are confusing Sahatti doubles with the Browning o/u rifle that Mac has, that has ribs brazed together.

DRJ, the ribs on a Winchester Grand European do not have brazed on ribs, they are soft soldered on. It is the regulation wedges that are brazed in that is the problem. The rifles can be re-regulated but it requires the ribs be totally removed, and the brazed in wedges sawed down the middle leaving half of the wedge still attached to each barrel and soft solder a thin iron wedge between the two halves to regulate the barrels, This requires the ribs to be re-soldered back on, carded and the barrel set re-blacked. Time consuming, and costly in bench time!

........................................................................

That film looks good to those who have zero idea of how regulation of a double rifle is properly done, and this one was not done properly. The wrong thing in that regulation was the fixture used to do the regulation.

This is the pattern done with trial and error so the barrels can be placed in the jig to do the rest of the double in that caliber.

In regard to the fixture, did anyone notice the vertical ears on the rest used to regulate the prototype barrel set? Those ears retard the side to side flip, and when that rifle is shot with only the hands holding the fore stock, I sincerely doubt that rifle will print the same way it did in that fixture. This is just one more layer that contributes to the problems that buyers are experiencing with Sabatti rifles.

The front rest on that shooting fixture should have a soft pad to rest the shooter's hand on while holding the fore-stock and barrels so the rifle can recoil up, and away from the other barrel during the barrel time for each barrel.

By placing those barrels in that fixture is exactly like placing the barrels in a vice to regulate it. the target will not look the same when held in the shooters hands as it does in a vice, or the fixture they are using in that film. Then to use those barrels to adjust the jig to make the other barrels in that caliber, one simply cannot expect the rifle made that way to shoot properly in the hands of a shooter.

..............................................................................................................

To understand why the ears on a rest used to regulate a double rifle should never have vertical ears that fit tight against the barrels.

To explain why this is he case, The barrels of a double rifle have to be converging so they will shoot parallel ! That may sound silly to the unschooled, bit it is true none the less. If you remove the barrel set form a well regulated double rifle, and place the under lugs in a padded vice, and support the front of the barrels with the sights lined up on an aiming point on a target at the range engraved on the standing rear sight. The place an empty cartridge case, with no primers in each barrel . Now look through the primer flash hole to see where each barrel is in relation to the aiming point of the sights.

What you will see is the RIGHT barrel will be printing it’s line of sight to a point that is LOW, and LEFT of the AIMING POINT. The LEFT barrel will be looking at a point that is LOW, and RIGHT of the AIMING POINT of where the sights.

What this tells you is, when the RIGHT barrel is fired it moves UP, and to the RIGHT while the bullet is traveling down the bore, so that is pointing to where the sights were when the trigger was pulled. When the LEFT barrel is fired it moves UP and to the LEFT while the bullet is traveling down the barrel so that it is pointing to where the sights were pointing when that Trigger was pulled.

This factor is the reason a set of barrels regulated in a fixture that lets the barrels only move UP in recoil will never shoot properly when held in the shooter’s hands. The vertical ears on the front rest retard the side angle movement of the barrels giving a false impact on the target. The barrels absolutely MUST be allowed to move up and away from the other barrel during regulation or the usually shoot far apart when removed from the fixture and held in the shooter’s hands.

Even when working up loads one must hold the fore-stock, and barrels in he hand, with the hand resting on the front bag so the rifle cane recoil up and away from the other barrel or it will not regulate! A double rifle should touch nothing but the shooters face, shoulder, and his/her hands wile being fired to shoot properly

You can shoot the messenger but it will not make the improperly regulated rifle shoot properly!

.............................................................. ............

Shooting a double off sticks is a no no then?

quote:

Originally posted by Trapper Tom:
Shooting a double off sticks is a no no then?

You are absolutely correct! A proper way to shoot a double rifle off sticks is the same as it is for shooting from a bench or any rest hold the fore-stock and barrels and rest you hand on the sticks! The sticks, however have the ears in "V" shape so the barrels can move at the proper up and away from the other barrel. The ears on the rest in the film do not allow that movement and that is why when the customer gets his rifle it doesn't match the sight in target that came with the rifle.

...................................................................

Thanks. I hope to shoot my 470 Sabatti on Saturday. I will try that.

Yes, it is unfortunate that Sabatti had no clue about how to shoot, or regulate a double rifle since they did such a good job of making them. I think I was lucky to get some well regulated ones from them. And, I can re-regulate them the correct way if I need to.
And, yes, definitely shoot your new DR by holding it in your hands, preferably standing, but at least sitting upright as much as possible to allow the rifle to flip and jump normally in your hands. DO NOT do it like in the video where the tester is allowing it to jump without his hand holding the forearm. That won't work, as stated.

Agree.

It is a real shame and that video shows it.

As you said, they did such a good job of
making them.

Is anyone aware of video material on the internet that shows the correct way of regulating a double ? It boggles the mind that Sabatti could make such a stupid mistake and throw away such a good business opportunity. Honestly , how much more could it cost to do it right ?