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Gents this is probably too vague a question so I'll try and add some specificity in the hopes of at least a reasonable expectation. As most of you know I have a 450NE 3 1/4 VC and before a Sabbati. With the latter, I shot a LOT of rounds as my learning curve was steep and well, you guys know the regulation by dremel issue. Anyhow, I have cases I've reloaded in excess of five times,trimming occassionally. My 416 Rigby is the same way, hell I've loaded some of those upwards of fifteen times, either way I simply cannot see the usual tell-tale signs of case wear I see in my higher pressure rifles. Can you guys share your experiences? The last thing I want to have is a rupture with my double! jorge USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | ||
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Jorge: The low pressure double rifles will last forever, it seems. I have shot my .450 no2 and .450-400 dozens of times with the larger no2 lasting a bit longer. In the .600 even more so. In the 8 and 4 bores, well over 100 reloads with no trimming. For my hunting ammo, I use new brass or once reloaded. For target shooting, plinking, and practice I shoot until the case ruptures at the base or the neck splits. I started this when brass was near impossible to find in the '80s and early '90s and I guess old habits are hard to break even now that brass is easily available. (I hate to say this, but years ago when brass was so limited I continued to reload even with a split neck if that was all I had). By the way, the calibers mentioned above are the ones I have kept the longest and have more history with me. I have also owned and shot other calibers in doubles, including the low pressure black powder express rounds in .450 and .500 and I just kept shootin' until the brass failed, making sure to keep separate my hunting brass. Cheers, Cal _______________________________ Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska www.CalPappas.com www.CalPappas.blogspot.com 1994 Zimbabwe 1997 Zimbabwe 1998 Zimbabwe 1999 Zimbabwe 1999 Namibia, Botswana, Zambia--vacation 2000 Australia 2002 South Africa 2003 South Africa 2003 Zimbabwe 2005 South Africa 2005 Zimbabwe 2006 Tanzania 2006 Zimbabwe--vacation 2007 Zimbabwe--vacation 2008 Zimbabwe 2012 Australia 2013 South Africa 2013 Zimbabwe 2013 Australia 2016 Zimbabwe 2017 Zimbabwe 2018 South Africa 2018 Zimbabwe--vacation 2019 South Africa 2019 Botswana 2019 Zimbabwe vacation 2021 South Africa 2021 South Africa (2nd hunt a month later) ______________________________ | |||
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Thanks Cal, that is EXACTLY the answer I was looking for! Much appreciated! USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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jorge, For me in my various doubles, 465,470,450/400 case life has varied tremendously depending on brand and even more important Lot #. As an example, I have some old Norma 465 converted from 470 cases that have been reloaded many times, well over 10 as I write this. I had another newer lot of Norma 470 cases and got a head separation after the third firing on one and another on its second firing. After that one, all went into the trash. 465H&H | |||
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Thanks, so far the Hornadys seem to be holding up very well. USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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I am not concerned with how many times I reload a case. However I limit myself to trimming any case three times. When it needs a 4th trim it goes in the garbage. Brass flowing to the end of the case has to come from somewhere and usually starts down near the base. On a different note, I will only used once fired brass in any of my rifes (double or bolts) when hunting. Average case life? Went through a batch of Norma brass in my 9,3x74R in two firings and tossed it in the garbage due to the heads splitting. With my 450 NE and 450/400 have not discarded any brass (Hornady) yet. My biggest fear is when I die my wife will sell my guns for what I told her they cost. | |||
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I am still shooting my original batch of A-Square brass for the 500NE. I must have 12 or 13 loads on them at this point. They have needed trimming once and none have failed to date. However, for hunting purposes, new or once fired brass only. | |||
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My experience here with 450/400 and 470NE reloading is almost identical to that stated by Cal Pappas. My best luck has been with Jamison brass as when they eventually fail (after many reloads), they tend to develop a neck split rather than fail by web separation. I also have had good luck with Hornady brass in in my 450/400. The only double rifle brass I now shy away from is Norma. When I first started loading for my 470NE, I found I was getting web separation on some cases after 2 loadings - not good! This brass seemed very thin and brittle to me. So now I stick to Jamison and Hornady brass and I get at least a dozen reolads out of each case. For hunting, I go with new or once fired brass. | |||
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It is my experience that, while straight cases may last, cases with a small sloping shoulder are another story and may (will) show signs of incipient separation after only a few firings. 2 decades ago,I had a 9,3x74R separate after 4-5 (?) reloadings. When I opened the rifle (a handmade FN-Browning o/u) only the case head was expelled. The broken off case sat very tightly wedged in the chamber and it was a real pain to extract (eventually we -read : the gunsmith- had to resort to a worn chamber reamer to get it out). Since, I've been playing safe and have not reloaded a '74R case more than 2x before discarding, even when feeling no inside separation ring (I'm lucky to dispose of a large supply of 1x fired brass). Also, I'm partial resizing the cases, stopping just short of the slight shoulder. I resize the neck nearly fully, accepting a little headspace, unlike in a bolt-action rifle. I want to avoid putting strain on the hinge pin with too tight a case. Doing so, I'm still cold-working the brass much less than with FL sizing and I also notice much less case stretching and lengthening. André DRSS --------- 3 shots do not make a group, they show a point of aim or impact. 5 shots are a group. | |||
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I have at least 10 loadings on most of my 9.3X74R brass from Hornady. I had a separation on one case on it's very first loading. Other than that, no issues with them at all. I'm wondering if your case that separated and stuck in the chamber was more of a one time event with a bad piece of brass instead of a repeatable trend with the 9.3? One reason I ask is that I once had a Rem make 7mmRM factory load do the exact same thing you described in my M-700 back in 1978! And of course, I've been able to achieve numerous reloads on Rem. make 7mmRM brass without incident over the years since. | |||
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The ruptured case came from a Browning cartridge(NB : then, like nowadays, Browning was already concentrating on military ammo and had subcontracted their hunting ammo to Norma, thus...). I experienced one single ruptured case but often found signs of incipient separation inside case (ring/groove above case head)after 1-2 reloads. Who knows if it was an single accident or an indication of Browning/Norma cases being weak ? This being said, my main brass supply is Norma with some RWS. However, today the same Swiss RUAG group owns RWS, Norma, Rotweill, Geco and Hirtenberger and, it being common sense business policy to rationalize and switch components production between units of the same conglomerate, who dares to tell who makes what ? André DRSS --------- 3 shots do not make a group, they show a point of aim or impact. 5 shots are a group. | |||
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Is anyone going out of there way to anneal? or perhaps crimp their practice loads less then their hunting loads? I will anneal periodically but the jury is out as to whether I get the brass at the proper temp and I crimp all my rounds the same | |||
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Annealing may prevent case neck splits but won't do anything against case rupture. Cold working (expansion when fired + resizing) will make brass brittle and thinner (from elongation) until the rupture point is reached. Therefore and prior to reloading, one should make it a point of scraping the interior of (any caliber) fired rifle cases with a sharp hook in order to detect a (incipient separation) groove just above the case head. In a more advanced condition, incipient separation may also be spotted by a shiny ring in the same spot but on the outside of the case. André DRSS --------- 3 shots do not make a group, they show a point of aim or impact. 5 shots are a group. | |||
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What I experienced with my Krieghoff DR in 500/416. When I got the Rifle it came with several Box's of Ammo made in Germany. When I shot some of them I noticed the Case had bulged about a 1/4 " above the Rim making them hard to extract. I called Krieghoff and they had me send in all the Fired Cases as well as the unfired ammo and they replaced it with new ammo & cases made by Norma. These worked well. However with the Norma Brass after 3 to 4 reloads I noticed the Cases streatching about a 1/4" above the Rim.   Another reload or two and they started seperating.  The Norma Brass is Nickel Plated, so I can see the stretching when it starts. With Jamison Brass I have noticed no ill efects. | |||
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Larry, thanks for posting,very educational to see the pictures,you are right,with Jamison I have not noticed any problems, I am curious,when you shot the loads where the brass actually separated,how was the accuracy of those rounds? my reason for asking is what happens if this happens in the field under actual hunting conditions. DRSS | |||
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I had at least two of them seperate that day. I had a file in my tool box in the truck that when very carefully inserted into the remaining case I was able to get a bite and with a slight twist remove the remainder of the case. When I got back home I sorted out any cases that were showing signs of stretching and quickly disposed of them. I did not notice any change in accuracy when I shot the loads that the cases seperated. I find it odd that I don't have this problem with my .470 using Federal Nickel Plated Brass. I plan on making Krieghoff aware of this, and hopefully they will pass it on to Norma. | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Double Rifles AVERAGE CASE LIFE FOR DRs
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