Guy's

I need some help.
I bought a set of ER Shaw barrel blanks sight unseen. (Fully rifled)
1 3/16" OD 27" long.

What do I do with them ?

I was thinking A&D Boxlock with greener crossbolt in 20 ga converted into a 20 ga DR.

What to you guy's think ?
Can you recommend anyone for the project ? (Close to MI would be best, but not essensial)

Thanks

Nitro450exp

Nitro, There's a few companies now marketing 20ga rifled-barrel shotguns...aka a 20ga double rifle. Might be a cool little close-range deerstand or hog rifle, provided you can have it built at a reasonable price.

I think your money will be better spent in something like the Connecticut Shotgun Mfg 20ga "Professional" SxS rifled shotgun (bore rifle)

The bottom line cost will be similar or less than you will spend on the project, and you will be able to get your money back out of it if/when you ever go to sell it.


Also, if you do go ahead with the project, start with a 16bore gun as the donor action, not a 20bore.



Cheers
Tinker

Looks like I may be able to get my hog sticker done, for about half the price of an RBL Professional.
Yes it will always be a 20 ga converted shotgun, but then again the RBL is exactly that a shotgun.

I will keep you posted.

Nitro

Go for it...fun hog gun!

What is your budget for a fully rifled 20ga double?

There are lots of better looking options than the RBL in a factory gun.

The least expensive option I can think of off hand would be a O/U in the mid $3K range. Can you live with a O/U fully rifled 20ga? A SXS would be somewhere in the $4K range to start. Done right, a double rifled shotgun is as much work to make and regulate as a double rifle.

I am not sure why tinker suggested a 16 bore action, would like to hear why he thinks it is better.

quote:

Originally posted by Kebco:
What is your budget for a fully rifled 20ga double?

There are lots of better looking options than the RBL in a factory gun.

The least expensive option I can think of off hand would be a O/U in the mid $3K range. Can you live with a O/U fully rifled 20ga? A SXS would be somewhere in the $4K range to start. Done right, a double rifled shotgun is as much work to make and regulate as a double rifle.

I am not sure why tinker suggested a 16 bore action, would like to hear why he thinks it is better.

Kebco,

What are some of the SxS options?

The CSMC, which I have, is a fugly thing.

Wouldn't mind passing it on to my sone and picking up something more attractive.

BTW, that ugly regulation adjustment fitting on the muzzle really does work. PITA though. Took 1/2 day, but the thing shoots a figure eight laying on its side now.

And for all, the CSMC 20ga SxS "rifle" isn't a really short range weapon, it is accurate enough that 125yds or so is easily doable, if the slug you choose has the oomph.

Also, beware that factory slug ammo make factory NE ammo look cheap.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

quote:

Originally posted by Kebco:
What is your budget for a fully rifled 20ga double?

There are lots of better looking options than the RBL in a factory gun.

The least expensive option I can think of off hand would be a O/U in the mid $3K range. Can you live with a O/U fully rifled 20ga? A SXS would be somewhere in the $4K range to start. Done right, a double rifled shotgun is as much work to make and regulate as a double rifle.

I am not sure why tinker suggested a 16 bore action, would like to hear why he thinks it is better.

Kebco,

What are some of the SxS options?

The CSMC, which I have, is a fugly thing.

Wouldn't mind passing it on to my sone and picking up something more attractive.

BTW, that ugly regulation adjustment fitting on the muzzle really does work. PITA though. Took 1/2 day, but the thing shoots a figure eight laying on its side now.

And for all, the CSMC 20ga SxS "rifle" isn't a really short range weapon, it is accurate enough that 125yds or so is easily doable, if the slug you choose has the oomph.

Also, beware that factory slug ammo make factory NE ammo look cheap.

JPK

Chapuis, SIACE, Verney-Carron will all make a fully rifled SXS shotgun for slugs that is regulated in the traditional manor without the hose clamp regulation system used on the CSMC/RBI

Kebco,

I was looking to get into a pre or just post war A&D Boxlock with clips and Greener Cross bolt. $500 ~ $800 ( Sauer or Merkel )

A CZ new gun as above can be obtained for $500.

I have $180 into the barrels.

I have a smith who wants to get his name out, he has DR building experience and worked in British gun restoration and DR manufacture.
He is willing to tackle this at a very reasonable rate.

I have a nice piece of English for $250.

So all in all.
I think it can be done for $2000 ~ $2500.

About $2000 cheaper than an RBL.

JPK

After our discussions I decided not to go the RBL route.
Sorry to hear you don't love yours.

Nitro

K-

quote:

Originally posted by Kebco:
...
I am not sure why tinker suggested a 16 bore action, would like to hear why he thinks it is better.

Some reasons off the top-
High quality german/prussian 16bore actions are plentiful and cheap.
16bore chamber area/breech section is greater, giving the builder more room in the chamber walls to thread the blanks in there and re-contour the whole mess for a better looking and better-proportioned breech/chamber to barrel diameter transition.
The greater mass of the 16-bore action will leave a greater mass 'between the hands' (at whatever chosen rifle weight) giving the builder the opportunity to profile and strike more material off the mid and forward portion of the barrel set - giving a livelier feeling and handling rifle than if he'd started with the more petite 20-bore action.


Those are good enough reasons for me to consider the 16bore action size for this kind of conversion project.


$2500 sounds like a nice price for a good little bore rifle.
Do you have images of examples of this gunsmith's work?



Cheers
Tinker

Nitro450Express,

It's not that it isn't a good gun, it is just that it isn't to the standard that I prefer.

I shoots very, very well. It is incredibly handy because of its short length. But for the "hose clamp regulation system" it would be reasonably attractive.

Things that bug me:
1. Rear sight isn't where it belongs on the 1/4 rib, and it folds down.
2. The "hose clamp." (Though it really works well.)
3. The American Walnut stock - I have never really liked American walnut.
4. 24" rather than 26" barrels.
5. Balance is too muzzle light.
6. Probably associated with #5, the stock, particularly the wrist, is too meaty. (I have found that most "cheap" SxS's, O/U's, shotguns or rifles or bolt guns or whatever, have too much meat in their stocks.)
7. Barrel bluing.

Maybe I'm a weird guy, and there are plenty who would attest to that!, but the couple of oddities bug me, and if the gun were, in its bones, a higher grade gun, I would go ahead and make them right.

On the other hand, if I never find the right rifled slug gun, this one will do well and better than non SxS alternatives.

I like your idea, and I like the idea of possible factory semi-customs or customs offered by Kebco as well. Siace is a gun that is bult to a similar standard to the CSMC from the examples I have seen. That would be a problem, I think.

I would be very interested in something like an AYA No 2 or an Arrietta done up as a rifled 20ga. (or 12 ga?)

Good luck with your endeavor,

JPK

I'll take some pictures of a Verney-Carron 12ga sxs with rifled barrels I had made for myself. Its a 2 barrel set, the other barrel set is a 450-400. I dressed it up a little with a 3 leaf sight and day/night front sight. No reason it could not be made with 20ga barrels on a smaller frame.
The V-C SXS can be ordered almost anyway you want it, so frame shape, barrel length, engraving, etc can all be customized.
The gun in the link below (although a O/U)can also be ordered in a rifled shotgun configuration and would also be on a 20ga size frame.

http://www.kebcollc.com/cart/s...7&action=show_detail

I have on order a gun like the one in link below with 20ga rifled barrels and a second set in 9.3x74R
http://www.kebcollc.com/cart/s...6&action=show_detail

K-

I can see how a slender stack gun in 20x20 both rifled would be sweet and handy.
I really do think that a 16bore size could pay off very well in handling if the gunmaker profiles and strikes the barrels slim in the mid-section for a lively light-bore rifle.

It's been a while since I looked at your site - every time I see that 9.3mm drilling I look around whatever room I'm in doing an inventory of what I can do without and could sell well on eBay!



Cheers
Tinker

Hello All,

Thanks for all the comments.
I have not yet sourced the donor gun.
I have similar thoughts about the 16 ga and 20 ga discussion.
The smith says no go on a 12 ga, too big and heavy, too much work to make a well proportioned good looking handling gun.
This slows thing a little as I had seen 2 1950's Sauer and Merkel actions that would have made decent donors.

I may have to go with the CZ action in 20 ga.
will just have to wait and see how the gun search goes.

JPK

I will restock with English as stated above.
No Hose clamp.
Rib and sight will be exactly where I want it.
I am really trying to decide on the donor gun origins, English, German, Italian, Belgian, Spanish ?
The price point I have set is influencing this, I need a donor gun with out of proof or damaged tubes.

Tinker

As things get more organized and firmed up I will get permission from the smith to post information.
He is a member of AR, so if he decides to chime in, Great !

Barrels should be coming soon.

Cheers.

Nitro

Hello Again,

Question:

Barrel length ?

I was thinking 22 ~ 24 " ( Blanks are 27" )

What length and why ?

Thanks
Nitro

450-


I have had three 16bore SxS rifles (from 2-3/4drm to 6+drm), one 20bore SxS rifle.
I still own two of the 16b rifles, also the 20b rifle.

I really like the long tubes of a properly profiled and struck light bore rifle.
26" is as short as I'd want to go, and I very much like the handling of the 30" tubes on the rifles I have.

With the right barrel profile and weight distribution, the 26" rifle can handle like a dream.
Since you're 'starting from scratch' I strongly encourage you to consider going with the classic brit 'between the hands' weight distribution and fit.



Cheers
Tinker

If you are interested, I might have a donor for you, a pre-war FN lightweight 16-gauge with side clips and a greener crossbolt. I purchased it with the thought of building a 30-40 Krag double rifle. PM me if you are interested.

Dave

I would suggest either 26" or 27" barrels. I like the longer barrels and a well struck pair with enough at the breach and not too much from the mid section on will put weight between the hands.

Besides, they look better!

I would also suggest an English grip, if you are accustomed to one at all. Makes a SxS handle even more quickly and intuitively.

I ordered the pistol grip stock for my CSMC, to be a better clone of my big bore and medium bore doubles. Not sure yet if that was right or wrong move.

Sounds great.

JPK

A few pics of my 2 barrel V-C 450-400 & 12ga fully rifled. You can click on the picture to enlarge them.

First as a 450-400


Same gun with shotgun barrels


12ga barrel set


Some features

nitro450exp,

How long are your chambers to be? Recently a number of us have received 3.5" 20 ga. BRASS

from RMC Co. I have 40 pieces made to use .615" diam. projectiles. I am thinking maybe 600 grn-

700 grn slugs at 2150 FPS.
_______________________________________________________________________

JPK,

What do your slugs weigh? What velocity? What's the length of the chambers?
_______________________________________________________________________

Kebco,

Your slug gun looks really fantastic! Could it be built with 3.5" chambers and able to shoot 600

or 700 grainers at 2150?

quote:

Kebco,

Your slug gun looks really fantastic! Could it be built with 3.5" chambers and able to shoot 600

or 700 grainers at 2150?

I can have a gun made with 3.5 chambers in both 20 and 12ga. But it will be proofed as a shotgun. The 20ga 3.5 case was designed around the sabot slug approx. 450gr at 2,000 fps. do not hold me to this but I think the original pressure for the 20ga 3.5" was around 18,000psi. The 20ga O/U rifled slug gun http://www.kebcollc.com/cart/s...6&action=show_detail
will have 3.5" chambers for shooting sabot slugs.
I spoke to Rich at Slugs R Us who developed the original 3.5" 20ga slug and he indicated poor performance with a brass case and the sabot. He said it would not hold the sabot tight enough to build the correct pressure and that the roll crimp on a plastic shell gave much better performance.

Trying to load a ordinary type 600-700 gr bullet into a 20ga case and pushing them to 2150 fps sounds like 577-600 nitro performance.

My advice is if you want 577 or 600 nitro performance than you would be better served buying a real 577 or 600 nitro. Not only will the gun hold together it will be the correct weight.

Ken,

Is the V-C 600 NE action the same exact as the V-C 577 NE action or is the

600 NE action dimensionally larger and heavier? Does V-C make a 500 NE D/R

on a smaller action still?

quote:

Is the V-C 600 NE action the same exact as the V-C 577 NE action or is the

600 NE action dimensionally larger and heavier?

The V-C 577 & 600 action start off at the same size, the 577 is then filed by hand smaller.

quote:

Does V-C make a 500 NE D/R on a smaller action still?

Yes, it is made on a smaller action

Jack

Depends on the donor gun, if a 20ga 3" I will match that.
If a 16ga or 12ga donor I may consider stepping it up.

thanks
Nitro

quote:

Originally posted by Kebco:
A few pics of my 2 barrel V-C 450-400 & 12ga fully rifled. You can click on the picture to enlarge them.

First as a 450-400


Same gun with shotgun barrels


12ga barrel set


Some features

That is very nice.

I'm left handed. Any issues?

Delivery time?

Weight w/12ga barrels?

Suggestions if I prefer 20ga?

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by BigFiveJack:
nitro450exp,

How long are your chambers to be? Recently a number of us have received 3.5" 20 ga. BRASS

from RMC Co. I have 40 pieces made to use .615" diam. projectiles. I am thinking maybe 600 grn-

700 grn slugs at 2150 FPS.
_______________________________________________________________________

JPK,

What do your slugs weigh? What velocity? What's the length of the chambers?
_______________________________________________________________________

Kebco,

Your slug gun looks really fantastic! Could it be built with 3.5" chambers and able to shoot 600

or 700 grainers at 2150?

Jack,

Chambers are 2 3/4" in the CSMC Proffessional, as it is called.

While I would prefer 3" chambers because of wider and, imo, better ammo selection, I do not think the marginally lesser performance of the 20ga 2 3/4" factory sabot slugs is a significant handicap, if a handicap at all.

The gun prefers the Remington "Copper solid" Sabot Slug, which lookes like a Barnes hollow point, four petal soft point knock off. IIRC, that slug wieghs 5/8oz. That would make the (50 cal, I think) slug weigh about 273 grains. IIRC, it leaves the muzzle at 1500fps. Recoil is very moderate, very easy to shoot. Trajectory is adequate for 125yds, maybe 150yds without holdover, as I recall.

JPK

quote:

I'm left handed. Any issues?

Delivery time?

Weight w/12ga barrels?

Suggestions if I prefer 20ga?

Since the guns are one off, made to order, you can spec out what you want. Gun weight, ga., chamber length, stock dimensions (including right or left handed), cheek piece shape, barrel length, engraving, metal finish, scope mounts, etc. are all things you determine.
There is a pdf catalog here that can give you some ideas. www.verney-carron.us
Delivery is 6-8 months

Loud-n-Boomer

You have a PM.

Nitro

Hello All,

Well so far I have committed to this stock.





I have sourced a forearm blank, not yet purchased.
Barrels are on there way.
Gunsmith sourced and quoted.
Waiting for pictures on 2 16 ga SXS donor guns, one FN and a Simson.
Hope to get things kicked off by end of the week

Cheers
Nitro

The wood is very beautiful. I'll enjoy following you on this project.

Hello All, ( and Jack )

The link below will take you to the build thread of this project don't feel like doing everthing twice.

http://forums.nitroexpress.com...=0&page=0#Post162146

Enjoy
Nitro