Hello All,

Just wondering.

How regulated does a Double Rifle "really" have to be for Elephants? When is "close enough" - really close enough.

John Taylor writes about big caliber rifles with high "knock-out" values - "Even a head-shot that misses the brain, will result in an animal being knocked unconcious from 30 minutes, up to an hour, allowing time for the hunter to get up close for a finishing shot."

I have read that "in the old days" a Big-Bore Double rifle capable of placing its 2 shots into a 3" circle at 25 yards was acceptable. Is this still true?

quote:

Originally posted by nickh:

A double is either regulated or not.
IMO there is no Center ground on this one .

If a double can only shoot 3" groups at 50m ,
I think it needs re regulating.
Cheers.

Nick

Hello nickh,

Thanks for the reply.

So in your opinion, what is "regulated" - Is it muzzle distance apart at 50m? - or is under 2" at 50m acceptable?

Also, do you think caliber a factor? ( Big vs Small )

For example, I have a 375x2-1/2 Westley Richards with leafs out to 300 yds. That seems pretty optimistic to me.

I would agree with Nick that 1-1 1/2 inch groups at 50 yards. However, I would suggest that you shoot multiple shot groups at the same target to get a true record. Another idea is to shoot 3 shots from the left barrel in succession then 3 shots from the right barrel allowing a cooling period between shots to determine regulation. I shoot off of a standing rest at 50 yards to determine regulation then off-hand at 25 and 50 yards. Also fun to determine poi at 100 yards.

quote:

If a double can only shoot 3" groups at 50m ,I think it needs re regulating.

End of story...spot on

I saw this question last night. Honestly, with a question like that, I'm not sure explaining the complexities are worth the time, but I'll play anyway.

A 3 inch circle on paper might be fine for some, but in a real hunting situation, you must consider the following. You aren't at the range without other distractions such as additional elephants surrounding your target, oftentimes, others that you may not see. You aren't shooting at a fixed target with a very well defined visual aiming point. You're not shooting at a fixed range off of a well stabilized rest as most shot are taken offhand. A paper target's aiming point doesn't vary the way it does with every movement of an elephant's head.

What all of this means is that there are so many variables associated with shooting a live elephant in natural habitat that simply having a gun that shoots 3 inch circle at 25 yards just isn't good enough. For all of the elephant's size and the relative close ranges at which it's hunted, it's still a game of precision shooting, and the aimng point is never fixed but varies constantly. Furthermore, finding that aiming point exactly is a result of A LOT of practice looking at elephant heads in varying positions. Most of us sport hunters who've done it a few times, have a decent idea of the aiming point, but we don't have it nailed down like the pro's do. This more often than not, results in aiming points that are not exactly spot on to begin with.

If you don't think other ele's in the vicinity are a distraction to your shooting, I've got news for ya! The possibility for a defensive shoot is never greater on unwounded game than it is with elephant in close quarters, especially hunting tuskless cows. How precise do you think you can be shooting under duress with multiple elephants charging or mock charging? Enough to be a factor on it's own, with a perfectly regulated DR? What if the DR is only good for "Pie Plate" accuracy on top of that?

All this is to say that bullet placement error from the hunter's side of the equation is often enough to miss the brain shot ... and that with a perfectly regulated DR. If you add in a rifle that's capable of hitting a pie plate at best, the margin of error just multiplies. AND, not all elephant are shot at extreme close range.

In 2012, I was hunting Makuti with Rich Tabor for tuskless, buffalo, and leopard. We were several days into the hunt and struggling a bit looking for bait. We happened onto a tuskless that was out in the open, not leaving much of an option other than to take a rather long shot. If we hadn't needed some meat for bait, and granted, ele meat isn't the best for a leopard set up, we would have opted to pass. But as the conditions were, I took the shot at about 50 yards or so, offhand. That rifle was my old Merkel in 500NE. It shot lights out spot on. If it had been a pie plate rifle, I could have never taken that shot.

Video of that shot here: Shot taken at 3:16 if you don't care to watch the entire clip

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHdaeozClfw


Regarding caliber and it's "Knock Out" value, I'd take Taylor's writings with a HUGE grain of salt. You're not going to knock out an elephant bull by just shooting its head with a big bore. Now, some on this forum will argue, but I've seen enough to be convinced, that a close miss to the brain CAN knock an ele down, and possibly out for a few seconds, but that's it. Enough to stop a charge for sure, but again, that's about it. And where caliber comes into play, IMO, is that the larger the bore, transferring a larger amount of energy, the greater the distance from the brain the miss can be and still achieve this effect. That said, we aren't talking miss by an inch with a .375 and 2 feet with a 600NE. No, we're talking a few inches at most, even with the largest of rifle calibers. What exact distances, I can't speculate but having used a couple of 500NEs and a 577NE to take elephant, I'm happy with the 500NE 100%. I just didn't see any difference in reaction on buffalo or elephant between the two rifles when I used them. Anecdotal at best as my sample size is small.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

Video of that shot here: Shot taken at 3:16 if you don't care to watch the entire clip

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHdaeozClfw

Hello Todd Williams,

Thank you for your reply.

I really appreciate your perspective from actually experience.

I tried to view the video, but got this message ...

"This video contains content from UMG, who has blocked it in your country on copyright grounds."

Is there another way to view it?

Try this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wto05o8qsM

I notice YouTube placed a note beside both of them saying "Blocked in some countries" so I'm not sure if you're going to be able to see it. I don't have it viewable anywhere other than YouTube currently so if it doesn't work, I'm afraid we are out of luck.

What country are you in anyway?

If that second video doesn't work due to being blocked, try it again later today or maybe tomorrow. I removed the music that was the basis for the block (on the second link only). YouTube says it may take a little while to complete the edit and remove the block, but you should be able to view it within the next day or so.

Buckstix, what velocity are you getting with your 375 2 1/2 and what bullet heads are you using with your ammo?

reason I ask is that if I'm not mistaken its a 9.5x57 , and does that produce the required ft-lbs to pass as minimum requirement?

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Try this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wto05o8qsM

What country are you in anyway?

I'm in Whitetail Deer Country ... Wisconsin, USA

second link didn't work either .. I'll try again tomorrow.

quote:

Originally posted by ilitshe_zim:
Buckstix, what velocity are you getting with your 375 2 1/2 and what bullet heads are you using with your ammo?

Hello ilitshe_zim,

Thanks for the reply.

My 375x2-1/2 Westley Richards is proof stamped: "375 - 2.50" - CORDITE 40 - 270 MAX"

I shoot 43g of IMR 3031 with a 286g Helm SP = 1965 fps - groups about 1-1/2" @ 50 yards and 4-3/4" @ 100 yards.

Both barrels into 3 inches at 50 yards is plenty accurate. You already did the math on it. Of course everyone wants a zero inch regulation but in the real world, they are rare. The factory spec is usually two inches at 50 meters. The less than one inch thing is unnecessary for the ranges involved.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Both barrels into 3 inches at 50 yards is plenty accurate.

But that was not the original question. The original question was in regards to 3" at 25 yards, not 50.

So we are down to splitting hairs as to if 3" is not acceptable, but 2" is. I don't think that's really the determining factor as to whether or not a DR is properly regulated (and ammo matched to the regulation). For my money, the question is more about how the rifle shoots at 25 yards, compared to 50, 75, and even 100 yards.

In the case of my rifle, the absolute best it ever shot at 25 yards was an average of 3.5". Most spreads were closer to 4" to 5". But, the significant issue was that the spread nearly doubled at 50 yards. THAT is an issue. It makes taking shots at varying distances too much of a crap shoot.

If you can get a DR to shoot a 3" spread at 25, 50, and 75 yards consistently, I'd say that's probably fine. It's pretty hard to get a DR to shoot exactly parallel in that manner however. There are too many variables to consider but let's say for instance, you have a DR that shoots 3" at 25, is right on top of each other at 50 yards, and has crossed by 2" at 75 yards. In a big bore like a 500NE, I could live with that. But not 3" at 25, 6" at 50, 9 at 75, and 12 at 100. And especially in a rifle that was personally commissioned and not "off the rack".

Just saying 3" between barrels at 25 yards is properly regulated is an incomplete statement.

This minute of elephant stuff is total BS. The brain shot is a tough shot that requires some level of precision.

It is said, and my experience on a variety of game over many years bears this out for me anyway, that the majority of game of any sort are shot under 100yds. In this scenario game animals are either spotted at under 100 yards or stalkable to 100 yards.

That said, how many of us would walk away from a range and be happy with a rifle that groups 3" at 25 yards and as Todd points out, 12" at 100yards - zilch I bet.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
This minute of elephant stuff is total BS. The brain shot is a tough shot that requires some level of precision.

Damn right. It also is rarely holding still and the 3 dimesional aiming points are shifting as you or the animal move. Frontal they are aware you are there. Side you might get you first unawares.

This is so far removed as a topic from punching paper they are not even in the same league.

Jeff

Buckstix, that second video is showing unblocked now. The sound is strange now however as I had muted everything except the shot in order to have the backing music. Had to remove the music to get it unblocked.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wto05o8qsM

It's showing that the video is 'private' now Todd.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
This minute of elephant stuff is total BS. The brain shot is a tough shot that requires some level of precision.

Damn right. It also is rarely holding still and the 3 dimesional aiming points are shifting as you or the animal move. Frontal they are aware you are there. Side you might get you first unawares.

This is so far removed as a topic from punching paper they are not even in the same league.

Jeff

+1 more on these thoughts

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Buckstix, that second video is showing unblocked now. The sound is strange now however as I had muted everything except the shot in order to have the backing music. Had to remove the music to get it unblocked.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wto05o8qsM

It still gives me a message that says; " This video is private - sorry about that "

quote:

Originally posted by buckstix:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Buckstix, that second video is showing unblocked now. The sound is strange now however as I had muted everything except the shot in order to have the backing music. Had to remove the music to get it unblocked.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wto05o8qsM

It still gives me a message that says; " This video is private - sorry about that "

Helmut:
Just say your post here after I replied to your email about my 8-bore. The video plays for me without a problem.
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by buckstix:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Buckstix, that second video is showing unblocked now. The sound is strange now however as I had muted everything except the shot in order to have the backing music. Had to remove the music to get it unblocked.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wto05o8qsM

It still gives me a message that says; " This video is private - sorry about that "

Damn. For a little video that used to play with no issues, YT sure locked this one down. It's been changed to Unlisted now so it should play. If not, we'll call it quits. It ain't that big of a deal.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

Damn. For a little video that used to play with no issues, YT sure locked this one down. It's been changed to Unlisted now so it should play. If not, we'll call it quits. It ain't that big of a deal.

Hello Todd Williams,

Yes, now it works ... very nice video to remember your hunt.

Thank you for sharing it.

Buckstix, the point of posting that video was to give you a visual demo in answer to your original question as to how well a DR needs to be regulated in order to hunt elephant.

Although most shots take place pretty close, it's not always the case. And, even at a distance, they are sometimes aware of your presence making a quick off hand shot necessary, without the luxury of settling in on a set of sticks and taking time for everything to be just right.

Point being, that the rifle really needs to instill confidence that the bullet is going to strike where the aiming point is, regardless of range, within limits of course. Anyway, I hope the shot in the video gives some insight.

A double has to be regulated enough to hit your target-that simple.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Buckstix, the point of posting that video was to give you a visual demo in answer to your original question as to how well a DR needs to be regulated in order to hunt elephant.

Although most shots take place pretty close, it's not always the case. And, even at a distance, they are sometimes aware of your presence making a quick off hand shot necessary, without the luxury of settling in on a set of sticks and taking time for everything to be just right.

Point being, that the rifle really needs to instill confidence that the bullet is going to strike where the aiming point is, regardless of range, within limits of course. Anyway, I hope the shot in the video gives some insight.

Todd, We have definitely chewed some of the same dirt.

Jeff

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Buckstix, the point of posting that video was to give you a visual demo in answer to your original question as to how well a DR needs to be regulated in order to hunt elephant.

Although most shots take place pretty close, it's not always the case. And, even at a distance, they are sometimes aware of your presence making a quick off hand shot necessary, without the luxury of settling in on a set of sticks and taking time for everything to be just right.

Point being, that the rifle really needs to instill confidence that the bullet is going to strike where the aiming point is, regardless of range, within limits of course. Anyway, I hope the shot in the video gives some insight.

Todd, We have definitely chewed some of the same dirt.

Jeff

Secrete Valley in Makuti?

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Buckstix, the point of posting that video was to give you a visual demo in answer to your original question as to how well a DR needs to be regulated in order to hunt elephant.

Although most shots take place pretty close, it's not always the case. And, even at a distance, they are sometimes aware of your presence making a quick off hand shot necessary, without the luxury of settling in on a set of sticks and taking time for everything to be just right.

Point being, that the rifle really needs to instill confidence that the bullet is going to strike where the aiming point is, regardless of range, within limits of course. Anyway, I hope the shot in the video gives some insight.

Todd, We have definitely chewed some of the same dirt.

Jeff

Secrete Valley in Makuti?

No sorry looked like the hills down by river in Dande...my bad...Wouldn't hunt Makuti...shit scared of the tryps...

Jeff

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Buckstix, the point of posting that video was to give you a visual demo in answer to your original question as to how well a DR needs to be regulated in order to hunt elephant.

Although most shots take place pretty close, it's not always the case. And, even at a distance, they are sometimes aware of your presence making a quick off hand shot necessary, without the luxury of settling in on a set of sticks and taking time for everything to be just right.

Point being, that the rifle really needs to instill confidence that the bullet is going to strike where the aiming point is, regardless of range, within limits of course. Anyway, I hope the shot in the video gives some insight.

Todd, We have definitely chewed some of the same dirt.

Jeff

Secrete Valley in Makuti?

No sorry looked like the hills down by river in Dande...my bad...Wouldn't hunt Makuti...shit scared of the tryps...

Jeff

Ha. Yeah, that hunt was before Justin and Blake caught it.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Buckstix, the point of posting that video was to give you a visual demo in answer to your original question as to how well a DR needs to be regulated in order to hunt elephant.

Although most shots take place pretty close, it's not always the case. And, even at a distance, they are sometimes aware of your presence making a quick off hand shot necessary, without the luxury of settling in on a set of sticks and taking time for everything to be just right.

Point being, that the rifle really needs to instill confidence that the bullet is going to strike where the aiming point is, regardless of range, within limits of course. Anyway, I hope the shot in the video gives some insight.

Todd, We have definitely chewed some of the same dirt.

Jeff

Secrete Valley in Makuti?

No sorry looked like the hills down by river in Dande...my bad...Wouldn't hunt Makuti...shit scared of the tryps...

Jeff

Ha. Yeah, that hunt was before Justin and Blake caught it.

Richie won't hunt there and the practical exam for Zim appies was held there this year and 2 appies came down with it.

Jeff

Just did Makuti, huge leopard and no one pooped off. Did not hear of anyone being ill. It was a great hunt, lots and lots of leopard, elephant and what other animals about.

Had a friend bitten by a tick in New Jersey, caught sleeping sickness and died. One can become ill anywhere and pop off.

One pays their money and takes their chance. All one can do is use caution.

Howard Hughes walked in Kleenex boxes on a ship and guess what he is sadly dead.

Enjoy and when the time comes to have your ticket punched the Grim Reaper shall locate you. Even if your Sabatti shoots 1/2 inch groups off hand at 100 meters. At least at the wake they can say you lived a great life.

Better to be a Donald Trump tha a Hillary or a Bernie. One sadly cannot mention old Joe he probably thinks he is a tetse fly if he knows what one is.

Go for the gold and enjoy your hunt. Our time there was brilliant with a fantastic PH, Camp and Staff.

They did not pop off either.

All personal preference I guess. For me there are lots of great places to hunt . . . talk to someone that has almost died from tryps and who took months and months to recover then make your choice. When the PHs that are familiar with the area say they will not hunt there, that is good enough for me. As I said, plenty of good hunting opportunities other than Makuti. You pay your money and take your chances, I agree, but I prefer to keep the odds in my favor. Not planning to hunt in Somalia or Sudan anytime soon either.

[Congrats on the leopard too!]

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
All personal preference I guess. For me there are lots of great places to hunt . . . talk to someone that has almost died from tryps and who took months and months to recover then make your choice. When the PHs that are familiar with the area say they will not hunt there, that is good enough for me. As I said, plenty of good hunting opportunities other than Makuti. You pay your money and take your chances, I agree, but I prefer to keep the odds in my favor. Not planning to hunt in Somalia or Sudan anytime soon either.

+1 2 young healthy appies caught it this year...whatever

Jeff

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
All personal preference I guess. For me there are lots of great places to hunt . . . talk to someone that has almost died from tryps and who took months and months to recover then make your choice. When the PHs that are familiar with the area say they will not hunt there, that is good enough for me. As I said, plenty of good hunting opportunities other than Makuti. You pay your money and take your chances, I agree, but I prefer to keep the odds in my favor. Not planning to hunt in Somalia or Sudan anytime soon either.

+1 2 young healthy appies caught it this year...whatever

Jeff

Yep. Listening to the PH's suggestions of do's and don'ts is usually the smartest plan.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
All personal preference I guess. For me there are lots of great places to hunt . . . talk to someone that has almost died from tryps and who took months and months to recover then make your choice. When the PHs that are familiar with the area say they will not hunt there, that is good enough for me. As I said, plenty of good hunting opportunities other than Makuti. You pay your money and take your chances, I agree, but I prefer to keep the odds in my favor. Not planning to hunt in Somalia or Sudan anytime soon either.

[Congrats on the leopard too!]

Over the years...people have caught African Sleeping Sickness (Trypanosomiasis) in the Lower Zambezi Valley as well. Anywhere there are Tsetse flys and reservoirs (humans and game but usually humans for the bad one...Trypanosoma brucei gambiense) you run the risk...but it is very slim.

. . . it is the relative degree of slimness in Makuti that concerns me. All airlines have crashes too. I still prefer to avoid Aeroflot. By all means, plan your next safari to Makuti. Take George too. Fly Aeroflot.

Yes, take George and his Searcy.

Please!!!!!