What I have is a Holland And Holland 12 bore Paradox. It is plain but in very nice condition.It has Fosbury Patent stamped on one of the barrels.
98 Bond Street on the other.

I have shot some 12 gauge shot shells in it and they appear to pattern consistently. I have not tried any slugs yet.
It would appear to me that the but stock was replaced but if so very, very well done. barrels have matching serial numbers.
So do you have an idea of value?.
Here are the only photos I have.

No idea, but I would send the frame and side plates to Turnbull for color case hardening.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
No idea, but I would send the frame and side plates to Turnbull for color case hardening.

NOooo!

Frank - First thing you need to do is verify it is actually an H&H. Fakes do exist. Is the serial number 15XXX ? If not, what is it? What does it say on the barrel flats?

And, does it have all the rifling left in the muzzle? The outside of the wood tells very little about how well the re-stock has been worked around the action.

With a paradox it's all about those last few inches of the barrels. If the choke rifling is present, I don't believe you have to worry about the gun being fake. Bore and choke measurements are necessary for a valuation. Your photos aren't good but the stock doesn't appear to fit well near the action or the rear of the lock plate. Never say never but I am trying to remember a 12 paradox with a pistol grip cap.

Was trying to remember a gun like that with no checkering on the stock either.


Either way, nice gun, one of the strongest actions around.

I would guess a restock from the shape of the grip and the area around it and the wood to metal fit. But, hey, it's a Holland!
Cheers,
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by gatsby:
With a paradox it's all about those last few inches of the barrels. If the choke rifling is present, I don't believe you have to worry about the gun being fake.

As I understand it, there were some Continental makers who made choke guns to Fosbery's pattern. It would be very simple for someone to have engraved Holland's name on the action. I have seen a couple of very crude guns so marked, though neither was a Paradox. I have not seen every type of gun H&H made but I can say it is not like any H&H I remember ever seeing. The serial number would be the best place to start. If H&H made the gun then we could use the S/N to find out when it was made and perhaps more. The proof marks will also tell us something.

Something similar ?

http://www.centuryarms.com.au/docs/15648.html



I would also check and have a look at Scott's guns of that era and do a comparison since Scott made a lot of Holland's guns up to a certain period.

Similar type action but in 375

http://www.gunsinternational.c...cfm?gun_id=100296924

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:

quote:

Originally posted by gatsby:
With a paradox it's all about those last few inches of the barrels. If the choke rifling is present, I don't believe you have to worry about the gun being fake.

As I understand it, there were some Continental makers who made choke guns to Fosbery's pattern. It would be very simple for someone to have engraved Holland's name on the action. I have seen a couple of very crude guns so marked, though neither was a Paradox. I have not seen every type of gun H&H made but I can say it is not like any H&H I remember ever seeing. The serial number would be the best place to start. If H&H made the gun then we could use the S/N to find out when it was made and perhaps more. The proof marks will also tell us something.

Well forgery is possible just not likely especially if the choke rifling is present. I have photos of similar Holland paradoxes (grade 3 Scott guns) on another computer although stocked differently and a later action. I will try and post them. Serial and proofs would be nice to see but for valuation you really need bore and choke measurements. This gun appears to have some mileage on it but I seen some beaters with good internal dimensions.
Scott guns scroll down to back action
http://www.jblanchdatabase.co.uk/technical.htm

quote:

Originally posted by gatsby:

Nice, Gatsby. That action looks the same, though minus the cross bolt.

Thank you gentlemen for the great info. I will get some measurements tomorrow.
I made a call today and it was indeed restocked and if I decide to keep it I will have it redone since the butt and forend do not match.

I will get some better photos as well including the water table.
Frank

About 15 years ago I spent the unbelieveable sum to me at the time of $ 7,500.00 for a H & H Dominion model 12 b Paradox like yours. Mine was also the plain version which I believe was referred to as the # 3 model. It came in a case with the original H&H paradox mold with HP pin. It shot very well at 50 & 100 yds. It was rough on the outside (stock and metal had seen much use- not abuse). FOOOOOOOOOOlishly I sold it back to the dealer 6 months later for the same price.
If your barrels are excellent inside and the rifling near the muzzle are also excellent you have a potentially valuble Paradox. I suggest measuring the internal barrel diameters from end to end and the min wall thickness. Another stock could help increase the price?
If you are interested in loading and shooting this gem, 2 sources of good info- Shooting the British Double Rifle by Grame Wright and an excellent article in the Double and Single Shot Journal by Sherman Bell. He lists loads and details the need to change the wad height to get each Paradox to shoot close to point of aim in some cases. H&H also sells loaded ammo.
If you keep it, ENJOY!

A question about the rear sights- are they marked 50/100 yds or 50/100/150 yds.?
Jim

I think Scott did make use of the crossbolt although most were square. I guess we we will know soon enough.