I was recently at a local gunshow and found a beautiful sxs rifle in 10 bore.
The gun is a greener with hammers, pristine rifling and high grade wood. Comes complete with original luggage case. I would rate the gun condition as 90% or higher.
Not knowing enough about reloading and component availability for any "bore" rifles, I wanted to do a little research first. The only thing I walked away with was the contact information for the vendor, and the hope that nobody else would grab it up before the show closes. It has been haunting me all night about being the proverbial "one that got away". I wont disclose his asking price, but rather look for advice from the forum gurus on an appropriate price. I realize that with many of these items, it is all about how much you are willing to pay.
Any help would be greatly appreciated:
-price guideline?
-availability of reloading components (brass, moulds, wads, etc)
I have done a search here on the forum, and recognize a few names of people that have reported on them, but the ten-bore seems to have much fewer reports than their bigger cousins.
lastly, what kind of recoil would it be comparable to?
I own and shoot many doubles, including a 577/500#2 that took forever to piece all the components together for. Just saying, not a "virgin" in this scene, but kinda out of my league with this one so far! Help me out folks!

PM Cal Pappas....I'm sure he's up on the 10 bore rifles ins and outs.

There used to be a gentleman from Canada (IRRC) on here that did quite a bit of Elephant hunting with bore rifles. I don't see him posting anymore.

I'm sure he'll chime in but Cal Pappas is who you'll want to speak with. He wrote a book about them, "The British Bore Rifle".

Please post pictures!

They were pretty anal about people taking pictures at the gunshow for "privacy" reasons, so unfortunately I have none. I have searched all my familiar sites on the net, and am unable to find anything even close to compare with.
I thought of directly asking Cal about this gun, but I recognize that others (Jens?) have some experience with them as well, so am open to any evaluations forthcoming.
For further description, I would say that the engraving covered 90% of the action, and as previously stated, the wood is very nice, bordering on exhibition grade. Almost too nice to take in the field (So far I have never let that restrain me though!). IIRC, the barrels were 28 inches, and the weight was 9 1/2#. The hammers were some of those hard to find "smoothies" that you can pull back in unison with one thumb. A real joy to work with. It locked up like a vault door (actually looked like it has lived in storage for the majority of its existence).
My next step is to contact the seller and get the serial number to relay directly to Greener, and hopefully come up with some provenance to help me further.
Hind-site is really kicking me right now. All the "should-haves" that I missed while I was there! I guess in my own defence, this show is one of Canada's largest (about the size of four football fields under one roof), and I had quite a list of guns I was working back and forth on. I was already picking up a new 470 merkel there, as well as another vintage 14 ga, so my hands were full, but,but,.........

Hi Jimmy.

You are right in your observationes...The 10-bore doubles isn´t so commen. 10 bores comes in comes in different sizes and loaded in different powdercharges, caseslenghts etc. The smallest 10bore I have read about had 2 5/8" case and the largest had 3,25" caselength. The average fra 6-10drams of powdercharge and from roundball(700grain) to actaully a bullets 1100grain). Some 10bore has a boredia as small as only .760" and some as big as .805". The norminal bore is .775".
The barrelflats should reveal most info needed, except for twist in the barrel. Is the twist 1:51 you have shoot atleast 1100 grain bullets. Is the twist 1:85 it´s roundballs. And everything that falls in between must be in between roundball and bullets.

Reloading components is procurable, wads, plastic hulls, bulletmolds etc. If you want brass made up a chambercast is needed. This will also tell whether you gun is made for paperhulls or brass cases.

Bore rifles are fun and they pack a smack. A borerifle bullet ain´t gonna shrink and a .775" bullethole is a big bullethole.

Bore rifles are fun, I have an 8 Bore double rifle and a 10 Bore double rifle. The 10 Bore E M Reilly weighs about 13 1/2 pounds. It uses a 2 5/8 case and I shoot it with 7 drams and a round ball. Recoil is heavy, but not too bad. It is a heavy push, not sharp like a .458. I am 68 years old and would not shoot it off a bench. Jimmy, that is an awful light 10 Bore at 9 1/2 pounds!The heavier 10 Bores bring the bigger dollars. That rifle must have been made for a round ball with no more tan 5 drams. David Powell, owner of Gunsinternational sells all the wads you need to shoot the rifle. Modern molds are available in 10 Bore size. Brass cases can be bought from Rocky Mountain cartridge. Bore rifles came in two basic sizes, brass case rifles that use a thin brass case and have a larger bore and paper case rifles that use a smaller size bore. 9 out of 10 bore rifles are paper case rifles and proved for one size smaller. My 8 Bore is proved as a 9 Bore for example. value of the rifle is hard to guess not seeing it. My 10 Bore is also fully engraved and in very good condition with 28" damascus barrels with excellent bores. Mine would be in the $11,000.00 to $14,000.00 range but it is a heavy 13 1/2 pound double rifle. That 9 1/2 pounds is about the weight of my W W Greener .577/500 no.2 double rifle. My 8 Bore, also an E M Reilly weighs almost 17 pounds. Good luck!

Great feedback gentlemen! Much appreciated.
It really sounds like I should be getting the seller to send me pictures of the flats, along with the serial number to relay to Greener.
And yes, the weight at 9 1/2# makes me a bit nervous, especially when the 470 I was picking up weighed in at over 12!
I have lots of research ahead. So far the biggest draw in this purchase, other than the obvious quality, would be the price. I can pick this one up for under 5000.00 US.

If the condition you state is original I would tell you buy this immediately. The price is fair for 10 bore to both you and the seller in today's market.The 8's in that condition get to 5 digits quickly. You can get the loading data later so pursue the purchase now. The condition is really what you are buying,kinda like real estate location location/condition condition with firearms. The 10's are a bit slower on appreciating in price but there again yours sounds to be superb plus it has the case.Greener is not royalty but definitely a great maker .Just my opinion but if I saw at Tulsa next weekend it would be coming to a new home with me.
Thanks
Wesley

Hi Jimmie, that sounds like a fair price for the double rifle. I used to own a .450 nitro hammerless ejector John Rigby and I can tell you the 10 Bore kicked harder. The 8 Bores with 10 drams and a conical bullet are in a different level! Greener charges 25pounds for info on the rifle. You need to send pictures of the action from all angles and the barrel flats and overall pictures of the rifle. Is the rifle an underlever and does it have damascus barrels? Greener was known for only using the strongest damascus barrels, not the prettiest though. 5 Drams would be the max I would fire in that double rifle. It would probably be safe at a higher load, but believe me, you wouldn't like the recoil! Buy Cal's book on Big Bore rifles, I have a copy and refer to it all the time. Send me a PM with your email address and I will send you a short video of firing my 10 Bore and pictures of the 10 Bore Reilly I have.

Sounds like you will surely kick yourself if you don't buy that gun.
For a 10b cased rifle that is at the very low end of pricing IMO.

How does single bore 10 gauge rifles fair moneywise compared to doubles..?

I think singels might be more rare but not sure..

Reason for asking, I have a single 10 bore, non-rebounding hammer, Jones underlever screw grip, fully rifled with heavy octagonal barrel with stalking safety..action fully scroll engraved.

The rifle is made by Joseph Lang & Son 1870..

Lets see the Pictures Pondoro.....that is exactly my kind of rifle.

I agree, very low weight for a 10 bore, anything other than light powder charges are going to hurt. A friend had a 10 bore single paradox of similar weight so it certainly is possible.

The barrels are a very high-grade (to me) damascus. I always look at damascus as a work of art, and this is definitely higher end, with beautiful pattern to it.
I cant recall for sure if it was an underlever! I am second-guessing that part of it.I looked at too many (if that's possible) guns yesterday to recall all details.
Yes, the weight seems light to me and nags at me a bit too, but I am going by the seller's notes that he had with him. Personally it fealt heavier than the other double that I brought home with me, but it could have just been a balance issue.

Gents:
Thanks for the plugs for the book. It has been well received with no complaints or any negative comments towards the 400+ pages.

In reviewing the posts here, first excuse my delay in posting but I've been building an addition to my home and working 10-12 hours a day and not spending quality time on AR.

Pricing a 10-bore can be from 5K up to 40K and beyond. I've seen them in all areas. Yes, weight, quality, maker's name, embellishments, condition, refinished or original, English or European, heavy or light regulation, etc., all make a determination in the final price. But, it all boils down to what the sell is willing to accept and what the buyer thinks it is worth.

Based on the weight of the rifle in question, it is for a light load, perhaps 5 drams and a spherical ball. As mentioned, the rifling twist will tell you that in a minute. Approximately--if the rifling twists 1/4 turn down the bore it is for a ball and if 1/2 turn down the bore it is for a conical bullet. I said approximately, so go easy, fellas.

As to the price, for the description given 5K seems very, repeat very, three peat VERY low. While there are some good deals out there, the vast majority of what I've seen is if the price is too good to be true, there is something the seller is not telling. I'd like to see some pics for a determination.

To put it in perspective, I am looking now into buying a 10-bore double, a smooth bore for ball and shot, with rifle sights in the original case with some modern reloading implements. The seller wanted 10K which was OK for a rifled arm but not so for a smooth bore. Rather that endless dickering, I researched a bit of past sales I keep track of and felt 6-7K was fair as it was substantiated by prior sales. I offered 7K and I'm sure it will be accepted. If not, there are others out there. So, my point in stating this is 5K is very low but be careful.

Jimmy J, if you want to email I can give you loading data for the 10 and would love to sell you a copy of my book. I'm at <pappas@mtaonline.net>
cheers,
Cal

Had a chance to get to the city today and pursue the ten-bore again! I did all the picture taking and fondling that I could handle, and then thought of all the kind words of encouragement that I had from this site "nudging" me toward the sale.
So, long and short of it.... it came home with me!
I'll do the research later.
Incidently, I must have looked at way too many guns. I was really off with some of the details...
Top opener, NOT damascus barrels (must have been the fancy Ferlach sxs hammergun he had on the table).The engraving is 100% coverage, and the wood is awful close to exhibition grade! I will check the twist, and recheck the weight tomorrow, but I think he is pretty close at his 9 1/2# quote. (it might hurt)
If anyone is really anxious to check it out, and willing to post some pictures (I know; I'm one of "those" guys!) I would love to send some out for posting. It really is a beautiful piece.

Exciting! Can't wait to see it.

jimmy j

PM sent with my e-mail address. I will post the pictures for you, if you would like me to.

Dave

Thanks for your help Dave! Incoming Email.
Hopefully the pics make it there O.K! let me know if I have to size them different to post.
regards,
Jim

Posted for jimmy j

Any pictures of the proof marks?

Hell of a buy.
10 bore, 3 1/2 tons, 3" chamber
Hell of a buy.
Stunning wood, nice engraving.
Hell of a buy.
I love the little raised piece on top of the hammers.
Hell of a buy.
I think Jim said he paid $49.95 at Wal Mart for this beauty!
And, did I write, Hell of a Buy!
Cal

little bit more than 49.95 (The exchange is a killer for us!)
But, I have to agree...."hell of a buy!"

post 1925 proof marks I do believe. I have a hunch this gun was converted to a rifle from a shotgun. All of the earlier proofs were wiped clean, the rib is much more akin to a smooth bore rib and the rear sight is a more modern replacement. All of that combined with the light weight makes nearly positive. Beautifully gun though. I really like the wood.

Rifled or smooth bore?
.793" is a big ten!
Cal

Couldn't capture the rifling in the pics well enough, but they are there, in excellent condition. The scary part; I put the gun on a certified scale this morning, and it is a lowly 9.37 pounds. I think it's gonna hurt!
Next step; the rifling twist measurement.

For the record, I have never seen a rifled "bore" gun before this one. I can identify an obvious rifling twist inside the bore, but the lands are shallow, almost smooth. Would this liekly mean it is for ball?

Jim:
A 9-pound 10-bore is regulated for a round ball and probably 5 drams or 136 grains of black powder such as today's GOEX FFg (FFFg is too fast).
To determine the rifling, do this: sight down the bore and pick out one of the lands or grooves and follow it through the bore. It won't be exact but 1/4 turn for the length of the bore equates to a round ball of 700+ grains and 1/2 turn will equal a conical.
Keep me posted.
Next, take a chamber and bore cast and get the exact diameter of the bore. Get a round ball mould of .005 to .010 over size and then a sizing die (from CH Tool) to the diameter of the bore at the grooves. After sizing the equator around the ball will give good purchase on the ball as it traveled down the bore on the way to your moose.
Brass cases can be made at Rocky Mountain Cartridge. Get shotgun primers for best ignition. Then some wads for spacing and over powder wads and you're ready to go.
If you want to shoot smokeless, I'd recommend Blue Dot and begin at the following percentages (starting with the low figure and working up): for a ball 30-33% of the black powder charge with Blue Dot and 25% for a conical bullet.
The above should get you shooting right on.
Where are you located from Sweetgrass? On Saturday I will be driving south from Edmond, through Red Deer, to Montana.
Cheers,
Cal

PS. Depth of rifling is not an indicator of the type of bullet. Rate of twist is. I've seen both ball and bullet bore rifles with shallow and very deep rifling.

It´s a big 10 like mine. Congratulations. Whatta fine pick-up!.
The barrels may say something about the regulation charge?.
Anyway it shouldn`t surprise me with this caselength and bulletdiameter we are talking about 7-8dram to a 950-1000grain ball.
The brits didn´t waist casevolume for nothing either...but again the brits were also good to match the weight of the gun with the charge. Recoil in a 9½IBS gun with 7-8dram and a 950grain might be on the stiff side too...:LOL

In the book `The development of small arms ammunition`(1985) Vol 3 written by George Hoyem you will find on page 16 there is a 3" 10bore cartridge with rollcrimp and roundball. That round is loaded by Kynoch. That might be something.
The gun could also be a re-proof.
Here is a gun proof from 1954-1989. Very Identical to yours except it´s a 12bore.
http://www.vintageguns.co.uk/articles/514-2/

I checked in the book `Kynoch`(2000)by Dale Hedlund to see if there were to be found 10bore ball ammunition but no luck. In the book `Eley Cartridges`(2006) by C W Harding was nothing either.

I am been looking through W.W Greener book `Modern Breech-loaders`(1871) and Forsyths book `The Sportingrifle`(1867) I think this gun in questioning is a ball gun made for 5dram black originally and later reproofed. In W.W Greeners book on page 104 is illustrated rifling profiles which spherical ball is best suited for. I think the riflingprofile + twist will tell what this gun is made for originally. W.W Greener state also 10bore ball guns were charged with 5drams and weigh 10-10,5 Ibs.

Again, thanks to all you gents for the generous input of information to date. This site is great, and lots of great contributors!
One item I have exchanged with Cal so far in PM's, is a picture of the leather travel case. The name on the case is E.N.Dominy. The research by our friend GOOGLE, states that he was a POW in WWII, who befriended a Japanese POW, and as a recreational activity in camp, started training in judo. They escaped, and upon returning back to the UK, started up judo training centers all throughout the London area. He would later represent Britian in international competition, and go on to write four books on training in the art of judo.
I was hoping to find a more "hunting"link with the provenance, but was still intrigued with what I have. The long and short of it is, the provenance to date, verifies that mid 19th century era, post WWII. This is all assuming that he is the original owner.

Cal, I really wish the timing would have worked out different. There is nothing I would have enjoyed more than buying you a coffee and chatting as you travel right through my home area (within an hours drive anyways!) I can almost see the Sweetgrass hills from my doorstep.
Two days from now I will be on a bird heading south for a hunt in Argentina. How does it work for the return trip for you! I wont be back until the 17th.?

quote:

Originally posted by jimmy j:
Again, thanks to all you gents for the generous input of information to date. This site is great, and lots of great contributors!
One item I have exchanged with Cal so far in PM's, is a picture of the leather travel case. The name on the case is E.N.Dominy. The research by our friend GOOGLE, states that he was a POW in WWII, who befriended a Japanese POW, and as a recreational activity in camp, started training in judo. They escaped, and upon returning back to the UK, started up judo training centers all throughout the London area. He would later represent Britian in international competition, and go on to write four books on training in the art of judo.
I was hoping to find a more "hunting"link with the provenance, but was still intrigued with what I have. The long and short of it is, the provenance to date, verifies that mid 19th century era, post WWII. This is all assuming that he is the original owner.

Cal, I really wish the timing would have worked out different. There is nothing I would have enjoyed more than buying you a coffee and chatting as you travel right through my home area (within an hours drive anyways!) I can almost see the Sweetgrass hills from my doorstep.
Two days from now I will be on a bird heading south for a hunt in Argentina. How does it work for the return trip for you! I wont be back until the 17th.?

Jim:
History of any double is what gets me hot. I have many doubles where I have the owner and the history and years ago I sold a 20-577 and it ended up with a gent called Buckstix here and he loves the history of his baby.\
The end of April I will be heading back but will angle up from North Dakota through Regina and Saskatoon and come into Edmond from the east to catch the AK Highway north to home.
If you can, fly up to Anchorage for our May 7 double rifle shoot, bring your 10 along. We could have 50+ double from .350 Rigby up to 4-bore and everything in between.
Cal

Cal, sorry things didnt work out for the return trip, but I am sure I will be talking with you more on this as I progress! I know that Alaska is out for this year, but I have been following along on your shoots, and watching the reports posted here with great envy. Someday......

I have checked out the twist, and it is 1/4 twist on the 24" barrel.
Ball it is then! I dont think I have enough material left to make a chamber cast of this beast. Gonna have to order another lot in.

As I thought.
Follow the steps and get a ball of the correct diameter, size it to exact fit, and experiment with FFg and Blue Dot with light loads (lighter than you expect to work, and move up whilst you check your target and when it prints 2-3" at 50 yards you are ready to go.
Good luck and keep me posted. Also, let me know when the books arrive.
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by skb:


post 1925 proof marks I do believe. I have a hunch this gun was converted to a rifle from a shotgun. All of the earlier proofs were wiped clean, the rib is much more akin to a smooth bore rib and the rear sight is a more modern replacement. All of that combined with the light weight makes nearly positive. Beautifully gun though. I really like the wood.

Yes, indeed a lovely gun, and the proofs are in fact from a later date than would be expected.

The proofs are actually even later than the 1925 Birmingham Rules of Proof, and are from the new rules of 1954.
I believe these came into use in early 1955.
The proof stamps on the barrel flats appear to show marks from between 1955 and 1974.
I can't quite make out the view mark date stamp from the photo, but it looks like it might be a letter V.
If it is a "V" that would suggest proofing was done in 1970.

Edited to add...........
The inspection marks that can be seen on the ACTION flats appear to show the gun was originally proofed pre 1905.
The BARREL proofs appear to be from post 1954.

Finally getting back on track to making this a working rifle!
Took a bit to get the additional cerosafe through customs, and work has been all-out crazy this season, but here is what I have to add so far:
The chamber casts of both left and right barrels are as follows: .860 directly above the rim, and .850 at the three inch mark towards the forcing cone. Recognizing that a standard 10 gauge is .775, how close to the casting measurements should I order the casings? I have dealt with RMCC before, and will go that route again, using 209 primers.
Both barrels slugged out at .802 on the grooves I THINK! Turns out it is a 9 groove barrel, so the measuring is off by a slight bit.
I am going to take the stamped measurement of .793 on the lands at face value, cause it is tough measuring that diameter for the same reason, that being the odd groove count.
Where would you recommend getting a round ball mold of this size (I am thinking go .810)? As per Cal's earlier suggestion, I will contact CH Tool for a sizing die (802?). I need contact information for CH Tool. I expect that they would be the best for the reloading dies as well, or should I throw that one at RMCC? I had him ship me some dies for my 14 gauge when I dealt with him before, and he does quality work. Just not sure if this is in his regular inventory of work.
Suggestions.??

I cast my balls and conicals .005 over groove diameter and size to exact groove diameter. With spherical balls, this gives me an equator of about 1/8" to crimp on. On conicals it gives me a good visual of the sizing process on the lead without sizing too much with lots more effort.
Cal