Simple question.
Pros and cons of a hidden third bite?

I can't see it being as strong as a correctly fitted doll's head or rising bite, even if it does make loading easier. I seem to recall a drawing in Burrard showing how a doll's head can combat bending of the action, on a counter-intuitive arc.

Do you remember the member here/or on NE that claimed bigger-calibre rifles from the most-prestigious makers coming off face within 30 shots? IIRC they only used a rudimentary third bite.

If you want actual details on such matters, read second edition of this book by W. Ellis Brown - "Building Double rifles on Shotgun Actions". First 5 pages of Chapter 1 Action Criteria; with pix.
Cheapest source is used or new from publisher, Bunduki Publishing. Very interesting and educational.

I take it that's a page from Burrard, BLS.

I don't suppose there's one with another drawing, showing the bending forces with a big arrow, and how they engage with a doll's head?

Yes I remember someone saying that about the H&H Royal’s. Not entirely sure how true it is. In his book’s Tony Sanchez Arino had nothing but praise for his .500/.465 Nitro which he took several hundred elephant with. I don’t think this would have been the case if it had come off face after 30 shots. Perhaps there might be other members out there that have had a Royal go off face?

I cannot say if that coming off face after 30 rounds is true...but I have seen ammo produced for and marked Westley Richards by a german manufacturer (Wolfgang Romey..?)giving extreme pressure signs. This ammo is made in both bolt and NE cartridges..

This was a boltrifle by Holland & Holland with Mauser M98 action in .275H&H belted. The ammo was overloaded to the extent that the bolt jammed shut..

If the rest of that ammo is loaded hot then small wonder that doubles come off face quickly..

Not sure if H&H use this ammo for regulating purposes though..

Pondoro, I had a similar experience with Wolfgang Romey .500 Nitro ammo made for Wesley Richards with Woodleigh FMJ’s pressures were through the roof. Velocity was low and a primer came loose. The head of the case was burnt black. Guessing the factory was using a bad batch of powder or the wrong powder.

Thanks for the extra page, BLS. Is that the only pic showing the doll's head or bending stresses?

I seem to recall one drawing showing the strain was not longitudinal (as in thrust against a turn-bolt) or on an arc from the hinge pin but another arc somewhere between those two directions, and that this stress would engage along the jaw line of the doll's head, taking strain even if there's no bite into the back/top of the of the extension.

Does Burrard explain this on the page previous to the last one you showed, by any chance?

Well, BLS, your reticence caused me to buy a Vol. I copy of Burrard, and you are 'right', the drawing I recall is not there.

On the other hand, the hard-bound, sewn-in copy is in excellent condition and cost very little, so thanks very much. If I can find the other volumes at a similar price, I might get them.

In my opinion, which means little to anyone here, a properly fitted "DOLL'S HEAD" third fastener is the best third fastener. But is very time consuming and skill requirement for a fitter and hence a more expensive feature, than most other types.

The Rising bite is basically a modified dolls head with a rising filler pin to take up space in the pocket that is also very strong but again requiring more expensive work and skill of the fitter.
The cross bolt third fastener is very common today and though gets a little bad press from some, if properly fitted, is very strong but the key word here is just the same as other types "MUST BE PROPERLY FITTED"!

……………………………………………...Just one mans' opinion!

Hey Mac, your opinion is highly appreciated, as is everyones that have provided the info.
Now Mac, when you say cross bolt third fastener, are you talking about the Greener type like the ones found on Merkel and Heym?
If so, has anyone checked HEYMs fitting of their third fastener?

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:
Hey Mac, your opinion is highly appreciated, as is everyones that have provided the info.
Now Mac, when you say cross bolt third fastener, are you talking about the Greener type like the ones found on Merkel and Heym?
If so, has anyone checked HEYMs fitting of their third fastener?

Yes the socalled Greener cross bolt! I have zero first hand knowledge of checking by anyone on those two types other than the fitters at those two makers. I doubt either of these two makers would not make such checks of the tightness of their lock-ups however!

I have personally owned several of both brands over the years and have never found either to become loose in any way to the bites and cross bolts.
Others may have, but I'm not aware of any!

…………………………………………………………...

If the crossbolt on my 88PH is as tight as the fore end was when I got it, it's plenty tight