Hello everyone,

Been spending months researching this very topic and finally came down to a few choices. I am a 28 year old 4th year dental student and come this summer, I'll be graduating (if Gods willing and I pass my boards). I have a really nice job lined up for me as soon as I finish school which means I finally have the time & resources to get started on my dream gun.

As for maker, I've been hearing / reading a lot of great things about Searcy, so most likely this will be a grade field model. I know I should try to get one this year, but coming up with cash these days is a bit tough, being a student and all. I'm probably going to have to wait till next year until I finally place my order.

So here is my dilemma, I am having a hard time deciding on caliber. I really like shooting my brother’s 458 lott (CZ 550) whatever chance we get. It’s the biggest thing we own in the family and its literally a “blast” to shoot. I know the lott is rimless and based on most people’s opinion, its probably best to stick with a rimmed traditional cartridge especially for DG rifle. So here are my choices, either a 450 or 470 nitro express.

The biggest advantage of the 450 NE is the .458 projectile selection, huge selection (thanks to the .458 win mag and lott). I haven’t seen that many sources that have the 450 nitro loading data, but that’s probably because I haven’t looked hard enough.

On the other hand, I have the 470 NE, little bit bigger diameter, tiny bit more power, but the caliber is great especially for resale purposes since I believe it’s the most common nitro express round out there. Disadvantage is the lack of 0.474 / 0.475 projectiles. I shouldn’t say lack off, but its just the selection isn’t the same as with the .458

As far as recoil goes, I don’t think the 450 or 470 NE are going to be that different from the 458 lott, I mean my understanding is, my brother loads his with those 500 grainer at 2300 (which I believe is more fps than any 450 NE or even 470 NE load I’ve seen) and I seem to manage it ok.

In the short future (maybe couple years from now), my dream is to go to Africa; the main animal I’d love to go face-off with is the cape buffalo. Something about those angry horns being pointed at you, I can only imagine the king of rush someone gets. Is this going to be the only thing I hunt? Maybe not, but its definitely where I wanna start in regards to DG hunting. I’ve never done any DG hunting, but instinctively I think it’s a “life time” moment kinda thing, for those of you who have done it, you probably know exactly what I am referring to. I am still fairly young, and I plan on pursuing this hobby for the many years to come.

DDS,

I've owned Searcy's, brit's, and guns from mainland Europe. All I can say is I'd look for a good Hambush, Fanjoz (sp), or look at one of Adam Freemans Bwana rifles www.luxuswalnut.com. It would be worth your time to go up and see George Caswell also. He will have a few doubles to handle and see what you like. Most of these guns I mentioned will allow you to play and get your money back in time.

Just my 2 cents,

Ed

Contact KebcoLLC.com They have the best prices and a nice selection of Merkel, Chapuis, and Verney-Carron, plus others.

.450 has better componants....470 better selection of (expensive) factory ammo.

As far as field performance goes...500grns at 2150fps is 500grns at 2150fps- the extra diamiter isn't worth worrying about. Recoil from either from a double will be significantly less than the lott out of a 550M

I think you should read GANYANA'S posts below from
another thread, re. caliber. He's quite experienced in AFRICA.
500N is quite experienced in Australia buffalo hunting,
and his comment, at the end - in GREEN ABOVE the RED X's,
is in line with GANYANA'S.

Ganyana

Posted Wed Nov 25 2009 09:50
The .450 offers a great veriety of loads if you like to load yourself. At the end of the day though there are only a limited number of bullets that will group well and regulate. However, 350grn .458 bullets are available and I found I could get these to regulate reasonably well for practice loads.

I must say I have never been able to tell the difference between a .470 and a .500NE. They are both above my comfort level on the range!

I chose a 500/416 for my own modern double- just more versitile - just better for lion and better penetration on ele's (which as a PH when you are backing up, is a real consideration that need not bother a client- you shouldn't be taking quatering away shots on elephant)- but have recently swopped it for a .375FL which I can shoot faster and better.
Posts: 2286 | Location: Zimbabwe | Registered: 23 July 2003

{Side note, (From me, BigFiveJack) Most guys report that with 10 pound
rifles either of the 450/400's recoil measurably LESS than 500/416's.
450/400's are also touted for THEIR penetration due to the combination
of 2150 feet per second velocity and bullets with .340ish sectional density.}

465H&H
one of us
Posted Wed Nov 25 2009 10:32
Ganyana,

How much does your shoulder injury from the poachers bullet affect your choice of caliber for a double rifle?

465H&H

Ganyana

Posted Wed Nov 25 2009 13:03
Standing the recoil doesn't hurt - except with a scope as my shoulder is far more mobile than it should be (When I shot Saeeds Tyranasor the bolt hit me above the eye!). But, I often shoot left handed- I was forced to for a year after getting hit and had always shot target rifle left handed anyway. These days I normally shoot left handed if we are looking for something wounded and the other guy is right handed.

My 'complaint' about rifles with heavy recoil is I cannot get a fast second shot off. Of course when things go wrong you never normally notice the recoil- but that assumes you are stading and facing forwards. Three of my closer calls were a) A buffalo charge from about 10 paces. I was squatting peering under the mopane scrub (looking for legs) when he charged. I took a snap shot, got lucky and hit the brain - but the recoil had knocked me onto my backside...I couldn't have got a second shot off if I had needed to.
b) An elephant at 2m that came and kicked over the blind while we were bow hunting. I took a snap shot up under the chin- and brained it with my 9,3...it was a very awkward shot as I couldn't get clear of the blind (a pop up type) to shoot.
c) A lioness that charged from the side when I was walking forwards. She came from my left when I had my left foot forward...and I was shooting left handed that day. I had the butt tucked into my shoulder and spun and fired as she came. It wasn't a great shot and the rifle was a very lightweight .375. I sliped on the wet grass and went down...which was very awkward as there were two other incomming lionesses and the one I had shot wasn't fatally hit. The other (more experienced parks officer) with me neatly dropped one of the others, fluffed the second shot and the morning rapidly got worse...ended up with one lioness on top of my (empty rifle) a few seconds later and me still trying to stand and use my revolver.

So..out of three close runs, two were hampered by recoil and the third made much easier by using a lightweight rifle that was easy to manouver with one hand out of the slit door in the blind.

I have never personally seen an elephant properly 'turned' by a poor shot from any rifle. On Buffalo, a bigger hole always helps when you get down to it, but not if it slows you down in any way.

If you can fire two shots from the .375 with a split of say .1 seconds...then the splits from our big bore must be no slower (say keeping shots in the A zone at 10 paces).

In a heavyish double like the Krieghoff, the spits with the .416 barrels on were the same as with the 28guage shotgun barrels on (and same as the .375FL - I just shot 50 rnds from the new rifle today practicing.)

Shooting my mates .470's and .500's my times were nearly three times as long..yet the increase in recoil is not actually that much - but obviously just over my 'threashold'.

Of course that 6 bore I sold in london a couple of years back lent a whole new meaning to recoil....Tryng to get Saeed to buy one to replace the tyranasour
Posts: 2286 | Location: Zimbabwe | Registered: 23 July 2003


Bwana_Dave
one of us
Posted Wed Nov 25 2009 13:15
I agree with Snowwolfe and ordered the same rifle, but without Talley rings, a week or so after he did. Beat the price increase and order your .450 NE Field Grade now. Ask for 26" bbls.

To have double barrels of fun, you have to use a double rifle.

Double Rifle Shooters Society
Posts: 49 | Location: Somewhere, I think. | Registered: 20 June 2009


BigFiveJack
one of us

Posted Wed Nov 25 2009 13:18 Hide Post
Well GANYANA has been "through it" and has concluded

that .375 Flanged Mag is his best choice based on his

ability TO PROMPTLY shoot it twice. I'll wager he's deter-

mined it's power to be enough, and that getting the fast

second shot off is quite important. Stuff any man might

well include when choosing a rifle.


Bwana_Dave
one of us

Ganyana,

Neither Stewart Granger nor Gary Cooper ever slipped or fell. I guess that is the difference between movie make-believe and real life. Your post was great reading.

To have double barrels of fun, you have to use a double rifle.

Double Rifle Shooters Society
Posts: 49 | Location: Somewhere, I think. | Registered: 20 June 2009


500N

Posted Wed Nov 25 2009 14:37
Apart form a 416 cal DR, I own DR's from 9.3 x 74R, 375 FL Mag, 375H&H, 455/400, 450NE, 470 and 500.

I would agree with Ganyana on his statement re recoil affecting the speed of the second shot.

I have one 450/400 that is heavy for calibre and that isn't too mad but I doubt I would want to carry it that far !!!

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

DDS,

First, welcome to AR. The boards can offer you some great advice, timely info, and an occasional good laugh. Hope you enjoy!

There are some here with a lifetime of experience with DR. I trust they will chip in soon. Mine is somewhat limited, but I will share what I learned.

My first DR was a 500/416, which I sold after one hunt. Made plans for Jumbo, so I Moved to a 470 for the extra "stopping power". I bought a new rifle, sight unseen. And paid almost retail.

The trouble with that rifle is the balance. It just was not what this class of rifle should feel like. Research a post from "New Guy", in the classifieds if I recall. He explains how important balance is to a DR. And the proper fit to your frame is critical. My second rifle had neither.

My third DR is a heym which fits and swings like my first girl friend. It is sweet. And I was fortunate to find it used, saving enough $$ to buy a nice hunt (no, not enough for a DG hunt).

What I would encourage you to do is find a retailer with a wide selection of DR, or better visit the Dallas Safari Club or SCI shows next year. Fall in love with your rifle. Put it on your must do list, then bring your new sweet heart home.

Plan your safari, practice a LOT (it's fun), and have the time of your life!

Cheers

Welcome DDS

I was in your shoes just a few years ago. I'm now 33 and bought my first double last year. Searcys are nice guns and would have been my second choice but don't forget to handle as many doubles as you can before you buy. Some just feel better in your hands than others.

I ended up buying a Heym Ph model and couldn't be happier with my choice. I believe the extra money above the Searcy was worth it but you may not. As far as caliber goes Hornady now loads both the 450 and 470 so availability isn't really a consideration although the 450 is probably a little more classic

Good luck it's a fun process

Thank you guys for all your responses

Some of you listed some new guns that I have never heard about, so my research continues (dang it, I thought I was done with this part lol)

As for caliber, I think I leaning more and more towards the 450 NE in 3.25”. My reason is: the classic nature of the round plus the HUGE selection of projectiles. But I haven’t made up my mind yet, cause you guys put the idea of a 416 in my head now.

BigFiveJack ~
That was informative, thank you. I’ve never shot a DR before nor have I been DG hunting, so the idea of getting of a 2nd shot in the quickest amount of time is something I never thought about before. This will be something I will take heavily into consideration when I finally make up my mind. The trick now is to actually find a DR and shoot it just to see how I handle the recoil and how fast & accurate I can get off that 2nd shot.

Jack D Bold~
That’s an excellent point you bring up. I totally agree with you about the balance and feel of the gun. I might be a newbie when it comes to DR but I know my O/U shotguns and let me tell you. I think I shot and mostly owned most popular factory O/U 12ga shotguns out there. The ONLY shotgun I can shoot 50 rounds of light 7.5’s or more is the Citori 525 (or the newer 625). I’ve tried the benellis, rugers, remingtons, winchesters, even the normal citories bruised up my cheek from shooting it. Something about that 525 or 625 stock that just fits me so well. So whatever gun I plan on buying, even if it’s a brand new Searcy, I would first try to get one to shoulder (and possibly even shoot it).

I wanted to ask you folks this, if I do end up with a 450, what ranges do people load this round in? I know most factory ammo (hornady) load theirs with 480 grains at 2150. But I was reading this other website and this guy (http://www.billsaccuracy.com/nitro.htm) said he can max his with 500 grains pushed at 2500 !! Isn’t that a little too hot for the 450? Also, the thing that really attracted me to the 450 was the fact that you can get that magic “2150” with just 44,000 PSI which I believe is much lower than its 2 rivals (.458 lott / win mag) who achieve that same speed with higher pressures.

Take this bit of info for what is worth.

I have shot AkMikes 450 Nitro with Hornady factory ammo and I own a 458 Lott. The difference in the recoil is huge, with the 450 Nitro being the easier one to shoot. Some people state the bigger selection of .458 bullets shouldnt be a factor due to regulation, etc but I disagree.
As a shooter who loves to experiment with different weight bullets the vast selection of projectiles offers alot of inexpensive practice. Don't really care if they shoot 1 in or 3 in at 50 yards if they are loaded for offhand practice. Remember, it is supposed to be fun. And when fun is cheap, all the better

DDS- If you buy a .450 NE in a single shot rifle (I had a Webley 1904) you can load it way up. My standard load was a 500grn bullet at 2350fps (ie, just a bit stouter than a lott).

In a double...the physics of regulation mean you are stuck with a very limited selection of loads. If you increase the velocity the shots will cross over, if you drop the velocity they will shoot appart- roughly 1" for each 25fps change.

You can play with loads- it is fun!!!!- I have got a .450 No2 to regulate with 500grn bullets at c2200fps.

You can also get cast lead bullets to regulate for cheep practice or shooting hogs etc. I used 380-400grn cast bullets in my Krieghoff at about 1600fps as a practice load.

However, on full power loads there is very little room for 'negotiation'. The bullet might be the right weight and going at the right speed, but if the powder is too slow, the rifle will still not regulate. The .450NE (and 500NE) are easier in this respect being essentially straight cases and relatively small case capacity - you can get away with a 273 full case of fastish powder quite safely.

The real pains from a handloaders point of view are the big cases like .450 & .475 No 2. They were all built and regulated with chordite...a very fast rifle powder (a little quicker than Reloader 15). If you use reloader 15, it is easy to duplicate the original loads...but then you need a foam wad.

The only cartridge intended for use in doubles that a) goves above 2200fps and b) was designed to regulate with a slow powder (H1000) giving a nearly full case is the .500/416

Loading for doubles is FUN...if you have a range close buy and can spend time trying small variations to get it right (rather than having to drive for ages to get to the range, fire two shots, see you were wrong and have a long drive home to start again).

Having a range essentially outside my reloading room, I have worked up loads for many friends doubles. I enjoy it- but it is nothing like loading for a bolt action!

I have owned a 470 and would like a 450NE. But in all honesty, you could flick a coin.
As far as components are concerned, once you have worked out your load and bullet and buy a stack of cases and Bullets, why would you need any more variety.
I have plenty of Norma 470 cases and Woodleigh bullets which I'm happy to stick with. If a 450NE comes up then ill just get a heap of Hornerber Cases and Woodleigh bullets.

I own a 470 and a 9.3x74 double,If had it to do again I would have spent the money on a higher end 450-400.It hits hard and is a lot easier to shoot well with a fast follow up.
JD

DDS...have a good look at the Heym PH rifles. I prefer the cocking system on the Krieghoff but the Heym are generally better balanced. Also have a look at a new 'London' Rigby. If they are as good as they say...

A good double is all about fit, balance and generally handyness. If it doesn't feel like you have an M1 carbine or winchester 92 in your hands...pass on it. A rifle that is properly balanced, and fits you will be a joy to shoot and 'real deal' in a tight spot with dangerous game.

The fit and balance are, to me, more important than caliber. And one in a slightly odd caliber (say .450/400 3¼ or .450 No 2 Jeffery- yes there are two different rounds both called the .475 No 2!!!) that fits perfectly is worth far more as a working rifle than any work of Art in .470 that has all the pointability of a mopane log.

DDS:

Lot's and lots of good advice here. One other thought that I wanted to pass on to you. Like you, I ventured into double rifles from a bolt rifle background. I would NEVER give up my bolt guns and I have always seen a double as a COMPLIMENT to a scope sighted bolt rifle. Because they have two barrels, most doubles start out fairly heavy and while some guys like to add a scope, I just don't care for a scope on a double. I know it is a matter of personal preference but for me anyway, the beauty of a double is that it doesn't normally wear a scope and thus, it can be brought instantly into action. You may wish to think of ways to pair a good double with your bolt gun. For example, I am very fond of the .416 Rigby so a Krieghoff .500/.416 was a natural for me. The scope sighted Rigby loaded with 350 TSX gives me the reach I need for a longish shot but the Krieghoff double with a 410 Woodleigh can be brought into play in heavier cover of for any follow up. Don't overlook the Krieghoff. I think it is a superb rifle for the money.

I also have a couple of bolt rifles in 9.3X62. A 9.3X62 (or a .375) paired with a "heavy" double say in .450 or .470 also makes for a terrific combination.

DDS:

Before you take the plunge, try to get together with some DR guys and handle and, if possible, shoot as many as you can. You'll be surprised the epiphanies you will discover after pulling the triggers on different makes and calibers.

I see you don't list your location on your profile. I live in Virginia and have arranged to have guys who were in the market to buy a DR to take my DRs for a test drive.

The DR guys (and the DRSS in particular) are here to help the new guys get what is right for them - really good people.

Post your location and see if anyone who has a DR in your general area can help you with a few rounds at a range one day.

Also, get your butt to DSC or SCI and start handling the various makes, models, and calibers. Narrow your search down buy your preferences and (most importantly, your price point), then try to shoot them.

Best of luck with your search.

Im so glad I posted here. Everything you guys told me made perfect sense.

Cause now Im having doubts about buying a DR without shooting a few just to try them out. On top of that, it seems that getting them to "regulate" requires ALOT more than a scoped bolt action rifle (what I am mostly used to). So, because I am a novis reloader (I reload 30-0-6, 40 S&W, little 44 mag, and .223 remington, and some .338 win mag), I think its more wise to get a big bore in bolt action first and learn from that.

Dave Bush~
Thank you, that actually started getting me to think about a big caliber bolt action. I've always been fond of the 416s (mainly the rigby), I might actually get a rigby bolt first before a DR. Now the search continues but this time for a bolt action

577NitroExpress-
Thank you for the offer, but I live in Sterling Heights Michigan. But I am 100% sure now I will not buy nor place any order on any DR without trying out a few first. As I said before, Im pretty busy with school, as soon as Im done, I'll start to look for some folks just to try out thier DRs

Right now, I'll be researching some .416 with a bolt action. I've liked the CZ550s, but I want something more "elegant" and I WOULD LOVE an all weather kind (stainless with plastic stock)

Thank you folks, you might see me post again in a different forum about a bolt gun

I guess I have been lucky that my two Doubles(470 Merkel and 450/400Searcy) required little work to get them to shoot well.
IMO a Chronograph is essential to get bullet velocity to the ideal point(imo 2120fps).

DDS getting a double to regulate with the 'standard' weight bullets isn't rocket science. You know the velocity of the factory ammo or at least what it was ment to do if it is an old one...you use woodleigh bullets and you try a few powders until a) you have the right velocity and b) it regulates.

For a 'light load'..uae a bullet 25% lighter than 'standard' (ie a 300grn in the 500/416) on top of exactly the same powder charge that you used for the standard weight...for some odd reason this usually regualtes...the real fun (and grey hairs) comes when you cannot get bullet weighing 75% of 'standard' with to shoot cast lead or ...then you spend alot of time at the bench and you need a good chrong, and a nearby range.

Have never had any trouble with any of the more modern built doubles getting them to regulate with Barnes Super solids and TSX's...In some of the older guns though...Swifts, Barnes, Northfork...if it aint woodleigh it aint going in the right place.

Part of that fussyness is due to the barrel spacing. Modern guns tend to be on smaller actions and the barrels are almost parrallel. On some of the old Brit doubles, particularly the No 2's the actions are masive and they converge quite noticeably. The more the barrels converge, the more fussy they will be about exact velocity, powder burn rates and barrel time.

There is no reason to 'ease' int double rifle shooting by getting a big bore bolt action. Buy a second hand Chapuis or CZ 9,3x74R. They are fun, useful in America, and will teach you all sorts about double rifles! I have a Zoli which is the devil incarnate! If the load isn't exactly right...it will not shoot. Change the powder...same velocity but a slower than usul powder and a 2" group become two 2" groups 6" appart.... She is a bitch but a good tacher!

STEADY YOUR COURSE WITH DOUBLE IN HAND;
FOR IN THEM IS MAGIC NO BOLT ACTION CAN !!!

I saved up for YEARS for my old British made

450/400! If you want to make big holes pretty

cheaply you can get a .72, .62 or .58 caliber

Double Barrel muzzle loader from:

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas...yncharset=ISO-8859-1

Especially for NEW D/R's talk to the owners at

www.heymusa.com and www.kebcollc.com they have great

reputations. For used http://champlinarms.com/Default.aspx?tabid=30

has SO much to choose from almost all the time.

There are bolt action rifles that are sublime,

but the "Promised Land" is experienced with your

RIGHT double...

BFJ, and Ganyana are telling you true, no need to be fearful-- there is a double in the AR bay right now. K-gun in a 470. Go to cableas see if you like the fit of a K-gun, if you do its a great caliber, and the price is right. Heck you could shoot that gun 4 or 5 years, and sell it for around 7800. Play for ammo only!

eD

DDS:

I agree with 505ED. Check out that Krieghoff in the classifieds. Kreighoff makes a great gun and if the gun is in good condition, that is a good price.

Personally very happy wiieghoff. Had one in 500/416 and taking my new baby - a .375 FL lion hunting tomorrow...

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:
Personally... taking my new baby - a .375 FL lion hunting tomorrow...

LUCKY BA$&%@D !!!

Must be a different style of life...step out your back door and go Lion hunting! So a $35,000 check is not an absolute requirement to a hunt?

I have had several DRs over the years and I recently got a 450-400 Krieghoff. I have to say that the recoil is absolutely tame; a 13 year old girl could handle it, IF she could hold it up; damn thing weighs 11.8 pounds with scope. Still, it is fun to shoot; something I couldn't say about the .500 I had (Greifelt) about 20 years ago. What I am trying to say is that there is a tradeoff between weight and recoil, if you plan to shoot it much. Of course, in the field, shooting at game, recoil goes away.