My first "go" at an automatic buff... lots of fun.

click on the link below to see the videos.

Chris,
Which did you feel more comfortable with, the double or the bolt?

If only real charging buff were so innocuous.

But looks like a lot more fun than only shooting at stationary paper squares.

And where is the blinding quick reload with the two cartridges held between two fingers?

Bill, you are such a killjoy

Geronimo

dear new guy great idea for a target thanks for the thought.

Pretty cool. Beats the heck out of punching holes in paper.

JPK

Great set up, Chris!

As for "innocuous", just let that grinch-like comment pass by.

The US military switched to those "pop up targets for practice and qualification about 30 or 40 years ago. The reason was not only that it was more authentic, but also because of an extensive study that showed them that such a set up resulted in more kills. You were trained to shoot at motion with little time to make the shot. They found that shooting at these targets made shots more or less second nature and with practice took most of the "thinking" out of the whole process.

And when you are in your shooting "zone", most of us are so focused that we tend to block out noise and other stimuli - that's why we don't notice the report of the rifle or the recoil.

Of course, for the Hollywood types, we could do some editing to make it more "Jurrasic Park"- like. Maybe you could overlay some grunting noises. And slap a couple of coconut halves on a board to emulate hoof beats - no wait, that is for a horse. I'll work on it... Anyone have Mark Sullivan's number? Steven Speilberg's?

Nicely done!

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
Chris,
Which did you feel more comfortable with, the double or the bolt?

Tony - that's not me with the bolt. I just fired a couple off with the 470. The video wasn't intended to be an exhibition of speed or accuracy, just to show everyone a fun set up.

The guy shooting the bolt can shoot a bolt like you do... much better than I can.

Fortunately most everyone has gotten the jest of the post so far: it is more fun than just shooting at spots on a piece of paper.

The biggest advantage to a setup like this I saw was improved handling and reloading of your gun. It's a very visual "stop-watch" that you can challenge yourself with. In turn, forcing you to become more proficient, more accurate and most of all, it would build confidence in the shooter.

If a guy put a couple hundred rounds into one of these "stop watches" in various drills and challenged himself to improve (within the set time from departure to arrival of the target) he would definitely become more familiar in loading, shooting and reloading his rifle.

Will, you’re right: they’ve fallen short in realism of a buffalo charge. The only way we could think of to make it more realistic was to put a buff target on the handle-bars of a motorcycle and let the driver do whatever maneuvers he wanted as he "charged" the shooters with the target covering his body.

I knew this post on AR would be the ideal "bait" for drawing volunteer riders out of the crowd.

watching that video makesme wish i had a cedar-covered backstop....i gotta build 1 of these!!!!!!fantastic.....i'm looking forward to the DRSS shoot in jan....

When I attended my first DRSS Shoot Rusty & Mark [400 Nitro] han a charging buff target. The targets were even from Africa.

The charging targets are excellent training.
We had an electric set up on the range when doing the Zoo shoots.

quote:

Will, you’re right: they’ve fallen short in realism of a buffalo charge. The only way we could think of to make it more realistic was to put a buff target on the handle-bars of a motorcycle and let the driver do whatever maneuvers he wanted as he "charged" the shooters with the target covering his body.

Chris,

I was not making fun of this fun event. I started doing the stopwatch thing this fall and it was so pathetic I gave it up! I didn't really want to admit how long it took to fire two shots in the bolt action, reloading two more, and trying to get all 4 on the target.

It is easier said then done.

Any practice I think is better tha no practice.

But as for double rifles, they are great but I must admit, and possibly others might want to admit, that it is two-shot scenario.

From all the stories and all the videos and all the anecdotes I have yet to see where reloading a double was a viable option to saving one's hide. Shoot straight with the first one, and if that doesn't work you have ONE more chance.

And when you get seriously charged and somehow you get out of it in one piece the attributes of a double come to mind!

Now if you get mass-charged by a bunch then the bolt-action will be the only thing to save you.

I wonder which rifle one should be carrying?

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
Chris,
Which did you feel more comfortable with, the double or the bolt?

Where did you see anyone with a bolt rifle? All I saw was two shots frm a double rifle on the Buffalo head!

Looks like much fun.
A friend of mine got a tripple on Sage Grouse with his single shot 20ga shotgun and holding the extras between the fingers of his right hand. I was doing good to just shoot one.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
Chris,
Which did you feel more comfortable with, the double or the bolt?

Where did you see anyone with a bolt rifle? All I saw was two shots frm a double rifle on the Buffalo head!

Mac,

It's over on the Big Bore forum.

https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/4711043/m/920102195

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

Chris,



But as for double rifles, they are great but I must admit, and possibly others might want to admit, that it is two-shot scenario.

From all the stories and all the videos and all the anecdotes I have yet to see where reloading a double was a viable option to saving one's hide. Shoot straight with the first one, and if that doesn't work you have ONE more chance.

And when you get seriously charged and somehow you get out of it in one piece the attributes of a double come to mind!

Now if you get mass-charged by a bunch then the bolt-action will be the only thing to save you.

I wonder which rifle one should be carrying?

Will, I believe you are absolutely right in that opinion! The difference is, it doesn't make any difference with a charge as close as the target in this video is two AIMED shots is all you are going to get, with a double rifle, and maybe only one with a bolt rifle. The speed of that target is just about right for a buffalo, but a lion would be at least twice that speed, and the second aimed shot is questionable with either rifle, but more likly with the double, and almost imposible with a bolt rifle.

The only charge I have had to stop started at about the same distance as New_guy's target,but it was not expected like the target. In that exchange, four shots were fired! first hit was in the chest at 12 yds with a 500/450 NE from my double, almost similtaineously was a shot, also to the chest with a bolt 375 H&H. Then the third shot was again a 500/450NE from my double, in the brain at about 5, or 6 yds, the fourth shot was as the bull was falling to the head by the 375H&H bolt, which hit off center, went through the cheek of the bull, exited the back of the jaw, and went back in the shoulder, and stopped between the ribs, and the scapula.

In that exchange, the double was faster than the bolt, but only slightly with the man shooting it. However,though the double was faster, than the bolt , in this case, I do believe, if the third shot had not hit the brain, one or both of us would have had a real problem, because neither of us would have gotten off another shot!

I think where the reload is a plus is, a standing shot at a buffalo looking at you, when the first shot hits the buff in the chest, he turns to run, the second is sent to the shoulder, now the reload, and the last two up the old shoute, as he leaves!

In a very close cahrge the double will probably both barrels warm, while the bolt will likely get only one, and if the guy is really good two! Nobody in a VERY close charge will get more than two, so they better count!

Of course in a short range charge situation you won't have time to reload a double. Nor will you have time to cycle a bolt 4 times.

However if you practice rapid reloading either a double or a bolt you can get unbelievably quick with them.

The bolt gun when properly reloaded (recharged) from the shoulder with a properly executed bolt throw looks and sounds like a semi auto in action. If you haven't seen a trained bolt man doing the proper steps at full speed it'll amaze you how fast, fluid and accurate he will be.

A double can be reloaded after two shots so fast that the proficient double gunner can just about match the bolt man for four and will absolutely whip his ass on an empty gun to reload into action drill.

The ole rounds between the fingers may look cool but it is about twice as slow as holding the rounds flat in the palm of your weak hand with the bullets facing you.

All you need to do is open your action with your strong hand. Bring your weak hand with the bullets in it to the action, drop them in and slide your weak hand forward closing the action, all in one motion. It is faster because you are using gross motor function rater fine motor function with the between the finger style of reload.

In any case to prefect either style take lots of practice and of course it can be done dry.

quote:

Chris,

I was not making fun of this fun event.

Will - I knew you were pulling my leg... I was just pulling yours back a bit.

Just went ove to the Big bore to watch the bolt rifle! Man, that guy is good with that thing! What was the bolt rifle chamber for?

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
Just went ove to the Big bore to watch the bolt rifle! Man, that guy is good with that thing! What was the bolt rifle chamber for?

That is a HEYM "Express" (Square bridge Mauser) in 404 Jeffery.

Let me also add that there is always the posibility of the bolt rifle having a malfunction, failure to eject,feed etc, or the shooter short strokes the bolt.
If you doubt that take 2 boxes, of shells to the range and do this drill and see if you bolt gun "hangs up".

The more certain reliability of the double makes it the sure winner for me.

Especially when I am VERY close to elephants.

OK that looks like a lot of fun. What do you need to set up a system like you show to get the correct speed of the target. Length of wire, along with what is holding the target to get the correct speed, how is it released. It seems others on the site have shot similar set ups.

quote:

Let me also add that there is always the posibility of the bolt rifle having a malfunction, failure to eject,feed etc, or the shooter short strokes the bolt.
If you doubt that take 2 boxes, of shells to the range and do this drill and see if you bolt gun "hangs up".

The more certain reliability of the double makes it the sure winner for me.

If someone takes a rifle on an expensive safari and doesn't do that drill (feeding a couple boxes of ammo through it), they have seriously short changed themselves in the preparedness department.

Now, while the odds of having a bolt rifle malfunction, fail to feed, fail to eject or be "short stroked" after the first shot probably exceed the odds of a double malfunctioning after the first shot, in a situation where a cape buff, lion, leopard or ele are bearing down fast on your ass, I would bet hard cold cash against donuts that the actual, for real odds of one of those types of malfunctions listed above (ie. rifle or operator) happening to a bolt rifle during a 4 shot volley are FAR exceeded by the odds of even a practiced double rifle shooter fumbling and misfeeding during a reload.

In other words, I believe the reliability of bolt rifles (especially ones that have been properly tested and tweaked if necessary) to exceed the reliability of a human to hand feed two cartridges when under extreme duress.

Of course, this is just idle speculation. But the Heym video further reinforces it in my mind. I am just thankful somebody FINALLY video taped themselves doing a quick reload with a double!!!

Cheers!
Canuck

Canuck,

You raise some decent points. It took me a second or two to figure out what was going on with the reload comment - apparently, there is an additional clip on Chris' web site other than the one first posted here.

quote:

Of course, this is just idle speculation. But the Heym video further reinforces it in my mind.

In all fairness, the guy in the video did at least two things slowing him down. First, he was reloading from his cartridge belt versus having two new rounds between the fingers of his non shooting hand. Second, he is wearing gloves in the video! Unless you are OJ, gloves would be a definite negative not only in taking rounds from a belt and trying to negotiate them into the barrels but also in breaking a double open.

quote:

Originally posted by Canuck:
Now, while the odds of having a bolt rifle malfunction, fail to feed, fail to eject or be "short stroked" after the first shot probably exceed the odds of a double malfunctioning after the first shot, in a situation where a cape buff, lion, leopard or ele are bearing down fast on your ass, I would bet hard cold cash against donuts that the actual, for real odds of one of those types of malfunctions listed above (ie. rifle or operator) happening to a bolt rifle during a 4 shot volley are FAR exceeded by the odds of even a practiced double rifle shooter fumbling and misfeeding during a reload.

In other words, I believe the reliability of bolt rifles (especially ones that have been properly tested and tweaked if necessary) to exceed the reliability of a human to hand feed two cartridges when under extreme duress.

Of course, this is just idle speculation. But the Heym video further reinforces it in my mind. I am just thankful somebody FINALLY video taped themselves doing a quick reload with a double!!!

Cheers!
Canuck

Canuck has a valid point where this diminstration is concerened! However, in this particular instance, The bolt man is far, and away more proficient than the average bolt rifle hunter, and to top that off he had a rifle that is simply top of the line. That statement is, in no way, takeing away from his ability, but to reenforce it!
The double rifle man, is, IMO, about average or a little less than average in his ability to reload a double rifle quickly. The only place these two are equal is both rifles are very well made and reliable pieces, so the only comparison that can be drawn here is the two shooter's abilities!

quote:

JIM MANION
In all fairness, the guy in the video did at least two things slowing him down. First, he was reloading from his cartridge belt versus having two new rounds between the fingers of his non shooting hand. Second, he is wearing gloves in the video! Unless you are OJ, gloves would be a definite negative not only in taking rounds from a belt and trying to negotiate them into the barrels but also in breaking a double open.

Jim is correct in the mistakes he has pointed out! The FULL glove on the loading hand is a real NO, NO, here, and the loading from the belt is a real "slow down" as well, but one thing you can't do is fault his shooting, all his shots hit the target!

In my experience, most bolt riflemen, I've seen, both in North America, and in the fields of Africa, tend to be those who fire on a target, and then admire their shot, instead of instantly re-chambering a round, and even those who do reload immediatly, they tend to take the rifle down from the shoulder, and wait to see if their first shot did the trick. Because of this shuffeling around of the rifle there is time lost, and it increases the probability of a jam, or a Buffalo getting into the weeds wounded. This was not the case with our bolt man here, however! I'd have that man backing my play any day, because he made exactly ZERO MISTAKES! I'd say if the sceenario were real, and there was a buffalo that close, and about to do them harm, who knows how well either would have done!

The two cartridges between the fingers is a good practice,for the double rifle shooter, if he has practiced it, and is far quicker that digging in an ammo belt! However, like any other thing practice make perfect. There are two ways to do the between the fingers reload, and I find most even load with the wrong hand in the first place. A person who reloads with the trigger hand cannot use the finger method. Though he may be quick, with equal dexterity, the man who loads from cratridges already in his hand will be a lot faster than someone loading from a belt, or butt stock carrier, regardless of which hand he uses, will be slower.

The standered way of doing the finger thing is to place two cartridges between the first, and second, and one between the second, and third fingers of the laft hand for a right handed shooter. I had always used this method till I had to have a cancer removed from the fore finger of my left hand, killing some of the nerves in that finger, And untill then,I had it down pretty pat. I had to change the way I hold the rounds for a reload. Now I have to use a special glove on the loading left hand. This glove has only fingers that cover half of the fore finger, and the second finger, and the other two are not covered at all. The soft leather helps me hold the two cartridges side by side with both between the first, and second fingers, so they don't become sweaty. With them side by side, the thumb can be pressed on both the rims which cause the two cartridges seperate the bullet end apart like the blades of a scissor, letting you drop both cartridges in similtaineously! and the likelyhood of fumbeling the load is quite reduced. With loading from a belt or a carrier, the barrels must be loaded one at a time, and that alone is a waste of time.

The need for a quick reload is not as usefull in a full close charge as it is in simply shooting Buffalo, or Elaphant, to avoid the animal getting into the weeds where a charge is likly to be the next thing you experience. In a really close charge of a buff, or Ele, you will likely get only two shots anyway, and maybe only one. If you are talking LION then a close charge you will most times get only one! LIONS SCARE HELL OUT OF ME, and make me my pants!

quote:

Originally posted by surestrike:

The ole rounds between the fingers may look cool but it is about twice as slow as holding the rounds flat in the palm of your weak hand with the bullets facing you.

All you need to do is open your action with your strong hand. Bring your weak hand with the bullets in it to the action, drop them in and slide your weak hand forward closing the action, all in one motion. It is faster because you are using gross motor function rater fine motor function with the between the finger style of reload.

What if you have extractors instead of ejectors?

I need my left hand to hangon or the 470 might slip out of my grip. I'm guessing that would be bad.

quote:

Originally posted by Lar45:

What if you have extractors instead of ejectors?

I need my left hand to hangon or the 470 might slip out of my grip. I'm guessing that would be bad.

Lars,

This works on a extractor gun as well. As far as hanging on to the gun with the shells between your left hand and the fore end that is simply not a problem.

Unless of course you've got tiny, sensitive, feminine, little Barbie doll hands.


The problem that you will encounter with this technique is that you can scratch the bejezzus out of your fore end if you don't do it right.


Greg

Mr. New Guy,

That was a lot of fun to watch! Thanks for posting it.

Respectfully,
Harry C.

Glad you enjoyed it Harry.

Hopefully we'll have some more video after the DRSS shoot next month... Now if I can just get one of those famous .577 "doubles" on film!

quote:

Now if I can just get one of those famous .577 "doubles" on film!

Now that, Chris, was classic! We need to have 700 Nitro come down just for comic relief again!