Hi
Have any one here ever shot with a Winchester 101 rifle? I am looking at one in 9.3mmx74r and wondered how it may shoot. As the rifle is for sale at auction so there is no chance to try before I buy.

Thanks
Bob

These grand Europeans were decent looking DR's and I owned one in 270 for a short time.

They were not regulated (traditionally) and used a line-bore method. As such, most of these need to be sent off to be regulated.

Unless you can verify that the both barrels land in the same zip code, I'd put my money towards a Chapuis, VC, Merk or something along those lines.

JDA

May I ask what the "line bore method" of regulating entails. I am new to all this terminology.

Thanks,

In other words, they were built in a fixture and not regulated for a particular round. Others on the site can give you greater technical detail than I, but my understanding is that a different solder was used, as well, which makes them a little more difficult to re-regulate (and tougher to find somebody who will do it). Cost savings...

As I recall, my 270 would put two rounds about 4-4.5 inches apart (at 50yds). If you can find one that shoots, I think they are good rifles. Mine had spectacular wood.

Okay, got it. Thanks. Like speaking a whole new language.

quote:

Originally posted by Reiver:
Hi
Have any one here ever shot with a Winchester 101 rifle? I am looking at one in 9.3mmx74r and wondered how it may shoot. As the rifle is for sale at auction so there is no chance to try before I buy.

Thanks
Bob

quote:

Originally posted by JDA-CO:
These grand Europeans were decent looking DR's and I owned one in 270 for a short time.

They were not regulated (traditionally) and used a line-bore method. As such, most of these need to be sent off to be regulated.

Unless you can verify that the both barrels land in the same zip code, I'd put my money towards a Chapuis, VC, Merk or something along those lines.

JDA

Listen to JDA, he speaks the truth! I have one in my gun vault right now that is basically brand new. The top barrel prints 3 inches high and 1 inch to the right, and the bottom barrel prints 4 inches low, and 3 inches to the left at 50 yds.

The fact is these rifles were made by a shotgun maker and who knew absolutely nothing about regulating a double rifle. Shotguns are regulated in a jig with lasers in each barrel pointed at a target at 35 yds. That will not work with a rifle, because it doesn't take into the muzzle flip over barrel time. Barrel time is the movement of the barrel while the bullet is traveling down the bore before it exits the muzzle.

A shotgun regulated that way will more or less superimpose one 30 inch pattern over the other 30 inch pattern. That is acceptable in a shotgun, but a rifle’s shot is the size of one bullet, and has to place that bullet in a vertical line and zeroed in on the sight on the target at the distance indicated on the rear sight. The bottom barrel should also print on a vertical line through the sighting of the top barrel, and just lower by half the distance between the bore centers of the both barrels.

The “Winchester Grand European” double rifles will rarely regulate properly, and the muzzle and center wedges are hard brazed in so are very hard to re-regulate ( if you can call what was done to them regulated in the first place) Most knowledgeable gun smiths will not even try to re-regulate them. It can be done but it is a hard job and has to be done properly, and that also requires re-installing the ribs, and re-finishing the barrels.

JDA, is right, put you money into a good used Merkel, Chapuis, or V/C rifle. They will cost more but after having to pay for work on the Winchester you wont save any money over the Chapuis, or the Merkel, and very much less on the VC.

………………………………..............................................................

I have, I believe, one of a few 101 O/U 12 gauge/.30-06. It has a QD scope mount that returns to zero. Rifle barrel has ejector, shotgun barrel extractor. Shoots 1.25 in at 100 yards. Have used this while doing predator control and wing shooting in South Afrika. Well made and barrels nicely mated.

I had one in 7x65R/7x65R. It was a nice rifle but too much of a frustration. I never could get it to group.

I also had a 7x65R/12ga. It was a wonderful gun, though a bit on the heavy side. I had a scope on it that had to come off to use as a shotgun but it came with factory issued swing-off rings that worked like a charm. I shot a nice 5x6 buck with it. It also accounted for many pheasants, pigeons, doves, and one grouse. I sold it but it turned out to be one of the better arms I have owned.

I purchased a nice Model 101 30-06/12ga for my son. It is a very decent gun.

I had the opportunity to buy a 9.3x74R/9.3x74R and passed it up because of the experience I had with the other 101 double rifle. But if I a nice 9.3x74R/12ga came up for a reasonable price I would probably snag it.

quote:

Originally posted by Reiver:
Hi
Have any one here ever shot with a Winchester 101 rifle?

Yeah, I've been hunting with one for 15 years.
It's a 7x65R and I did the re-regulating myself when I first bought it.
The Grand European double rifles were built on the 20g 101, and the rifle / shotgun combos were on the 12g.
I shoot mine with either open sights or with the scope which is in EAW factory fitted mounts.

5seventy - That's just like the one I had. Oops, you took the photo down. What did you have to do to get it to regulate?

Forgot to mention - the combos came with removable choke tubes, Winchoke as I remember.

I had to separate the barrels from the ribs and solder in a wedge, then use the traditional method of melting the solder and moving the wedge.
It's regulated to shoot the Woodleigh 160 gn PP.
Works real well on wild boar.

One other thought on the one I had in .270 - The reason I got rid of the thing was that the mounts that were integrated to the barrel wouldn't hold the scope tight (I attribute this to the thing shooting all over the place). have you all had that issue. as I recall there was a screw that was supposed to tighten it up - Mine didn't work.

Yeah, the EAW mounts need to be adjusted and set up the right way or they won't hold zero.
I had trouble with mine when I first bought it, and I have heard of others having troubles as well.
The mounts can be a bit tricky to adjust correctly, but you only have to do it once and it will work very well from then on.
I did the mounts on my Grand European many years ago and they have worked perfectly since then.
The EAW QD system is very well deigned and made.

I'm not suggesting for a minute that the OP "Reiver" should buy one of these Winchester doubles.
As others have advised, he would be better off looking into one of the other makes mentioned by posters in this thread.

Thank you all for your help and advise .I will pass on the 101 as I have also found a silver sable 2 Beretta for sale, have any of you used one of these rifles?

Thanks
Bob

Yeah, I had one of those rifles, thankfully bought s/h for a song, and now I know why. It had beautiful wood, nice engraving, suave (tapistry?) case and expensive-looking mounts. Trouble is it wouldn't put a bullet from each barrel within 18 inches of each other at 50 yards.

I almost bought one in 257 Roberts several decades ago. I wanted it just for the chambering! It would have been fun!

quote:

Originally posted by Reiver:
Thank you all for your help and advise .I will pass on the 101 as I have also found a silver sable 2 Beretta for sale, have any of you used one of these rifles?

Thanks
Bob

My old Silver Sable in 30-06 is for sale by Steve Barnett right now. It is on guns international.com. I traded it to him a few months ago.

If you can get past the big gap between the barrels, it is a wonderful shooting gun with 150gr TSX's. As I racall, the gun would shoot 2-2.5 inch groups at 100yds with about a half inch of vertical separation.

I carried that gun in South America, TX, CO, WY and killed a truckload of animals with it. I had to part ways with it because I couldn't stand the gap between the barrels.

He's selling it for $3950. If you're looking for a great little North America DR, it's a good one!!!

I dug around and here is a pic of that Silver Sable on a hog hunt in Texas:



Link:
http://www.gunsinternational.c...cfm?gun_id=100398634

quote:

Originally posted by 5seventy:


I had to separate the barrels from the ribs and solder in a wedge, then use the traditional method of melting the solder and moving the wedge.
It's regulated to shoot the Woodleigh 160 gn PP.
Works real well on wild boar.

It doesn't sound like an easy task removing rib's that have been brazed on. Did you have to remove the rib's completely from the barrels or did you get away with just loosening them near the ends of the barrels.

The pedersoli doubles are similar. No regulating wedge at the muzzle, just a lump of solder filling the gap.

.

quote:

Originally posted by Rhodes:

quote:

Originally posted by 5seventy:


I had to separate the barrels from the ribs and solder in a wedge, then use the traditional method of melting the solder and moving the wedge.
It's regulated to shoot the Woodleigh 160 gn PP.
Works real well on wild boar.

It doesn't sound like an easy task removing rib's that have been brazed on. Did you have to remove the rib's completely from the barrels or did you get away with just loosening them near the ends of the barrels.

The pedersoli doubles are similar. No regulating wedge at the muzzle, just a lump of solder filling the gap.

.

The ribs are not brazed, they're soft soldered, so they don't present much drama on the Winchester.
However the barrels have spacers which are brazed/silver soldered holding them together, including the one at the muzzles where a wedge would normally be fitted.
These spacers are what creates the extra work and time involved in regulating the Grand European DR's.

quote:

Originally posted by 5seventy:


The ribs are not brazed, they're soft soldered, so they don't present much drama on the Winchester.
However the barrels have spacers which are brazed/silver soldered holding them together, including the one at the muzzles where a wedge would normally be fitted.
These spacers are what creates the extra work and time involved in regulating the Grand European DR's.

Ok, thanks for clearing that up. That would have made things a little easier.

.