Considering a Merkel in 470NE or 500NE. They appear to be good value for the $$. I am an experienced African hand but have never carried a DR and after 15 safaris am thinking I only have a couple left. Your experienced input would be appreciated.

I may have to sell some large bore bolt guns to make this happen.

If its a working double you are after and you want to save $$$$ for more safaris to put the Double to work, then in my opinion the Merkel is hard to beat..

A 43" buff taken with a Merkel 470NE.

You've figured out my plan! Yes, a working DR is what I'm thinking. Some good buys available now on the 140-2 extractor models. My current heavy is a .458Lott, so my thought was to go up to the 500NE.

Nice Buff BTW. 43" is my best of 6 Buff.

Are most DR sold today extractor or ejector models?

Pros and Cons on the Merkel? Everyone, please.

I own a couple of Merkel double rifles, and I find them to be a value for money spent! Mine are a 140E, (ejector model) 9.3X74R I've been shooting for around 7 yrs, and a 140-2 Safari 470NE,extractor model, that I bought from omne of the posters here, He took it to Africa twice, and took two elephant, and three Buffalo with it. I haven't taken that one to Africa yet, but have shoot it a lot, and it is about perfect for my needs. I own several double rifles, and I find the two merkels to do a yoman's job if you do your part.

The new 140-2 is available with ejectors now, if you want them. I have doubles with both extractors, and ejectors, and I live fine with either.

The 470NE, and the 500NE Merkels are made on the same size barrels, so the 500NE is about 1/2 pound lighter than the 470NE rifle, something to think about, but on game you will never feel the difference!

.................Good hunting!

Bought one to take an elephant with. Took the elephant sold the double. Actually made money on the deal. It was a 470NE and I was well pleased with it. I think it's the best buy for the money around in a 470NE. Currently have a 141 in 8x57R that I also like very much and will serve me fine for my remaining hunting. Have owned both Chapuis and Heym and have nothing but praise for the Merkel. I can't handle much more than a 470 myself and it was definitely enough rifle for the job. Just had to get killing an elephant with a double out of my blood. Last one I killed was with a 416Rigby and I am pretty sure it WAS the LAST one I'll ever kill.

The idea of the new ejector model is good but with the amount of good, well priced second hand extractor Merkels out there, I think I would opt for the extractor model if the the price was right. One could be had for up to five grand less than the new ejector model.

Merkel with PAC Ivory.

I am a huge fan of ejectors, but with the number of fine, second hand, extractor rifles out there, I'd save the $'s for the use you describe.

I would opt for a 470, for ammo availablity here and in Africa, as well as for resale considerations.

Good luck in your search,

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
I am a huge fan of ejectors, but with the number of fine, second hand, extractor rifles out there, I'd save the $'s for the use you describe.

I would opt for a 470, for ammo availablity here and in Africa, as well as for resale considerations.

Good luck in your search,

JPK

I agree with JPK except on the caliber choice, even though his reasoning for choosing a 470 over a 500 is correct. With Hornady coming out with factory 500 N.E. and readily available brass, solid and soft bullets I would choose the 500 over the 470. In the next few months (I already have a standing order) Swift bullet company is coming out with a 570 grain .510 bullet, which IMO is one of the best soft points out there. At this present time resale on a 470 is better than a 500 but as the components for the 500 become more readily available there will be no problem trying to resale your 500 if you must. Since you shoot a 458 Lott at this time the recoil of a 500 should not be an issue especially if you use R-15 powder.

Dirk

The Merkle has a steel weight in the buttstock to counter the weight of the bbls.

This is because the action body is a bit small for 500 NE and 470 NE & is a little

"light" as a result. Perhaps this action might be just right for a 375 Flanged Mag

set of properly contoured bbls. But in 470 and 500 this rifle's weight is NOT distributed

in the classic British pattern of 50% of the total weight within the center 1/3rd of the

overall length, and 25% of the overall weight in the forward 1/3rd of the total length,

and 25% of the overall weight within the rear 1/3rd of the overall length. That Brit

"pattern" is what gives the old Brit rifles their "handling" grace. That handling is

a great part of what makes a proper double all that it is.

quote:

Originally posted by BigFiveJack:
The Merkle has a steel weight in the buttstock to counter the weight of the bbls.

This is because the action body is a bit small for 500 NE and 470 NE & is a little

"light" as a result. Perhaps this action might be just right for a 375 Flanged Mag

set of properly contoured bbls. But in 470 and 500 this rifle's weight is NOT distributed

in the classic British pattern of 50% of the total weight within the center 1/3rd of the

overall length, and 25% of the overall weight in the forward 1/3rd of the total length,

and 25% of the overall weight within the rear 1/3rd of the overall length. That Brit

"pattern" is what gives the old Brit rifles their "handling" grace. That handling is

a great part of what makes a proper double all that it is.

Big 5, I believe that should read 1/3 Rd of the total weight of the rifle between the hands in shooting position, and should have a ballance point that is slightly forward of the henge pin! The Merkel double rifle is already too light for the 500NE!

The action is not too small for the 500NE, just too light!

quote:

The Merkel double rifle is already too light for the 500NE!

I agree, having shot a couple if different Merkels in 500NE, I would prefer shooting a properly weighted 577NE.

I think the 470NE would be the better choice.

Keith

I shot a 500 Merkel and a Searcy 577, side by side.
The 577 was more plesant to shoot.

Also with the current problems with TSA and flying with .50 cal and above rifles I would recommend staying under 50 cal.

Well, I was going to buy a Merkel .500NE later today; I have it on reserve. After reading the previous 4 posts, all posted last night, I am having second thoughts. I don't know if I can get it in .470NE at this late date or not.

Any resolution to the TSA/Customs .50 issue? I can't find anything new on it. Also don't like what has been said about the rifle being too light for the .500NE.

Damn!

I had a Merkel in 470 and it was one of the most accurate doubles I've owned. I wouldn't concern myself with the .50 caliber issue.....but a 577, etc. might be an issue.

Gary
DRSS
NRA Lifer
SCI
DSC

Lionhunter, I'm sorry I missed your PM till just now Dec 23rd 09:07 CST, hope you get what you want!

I have a Merkel 500NE and IMHO its a pretty good gun for the price. Accurate as HELL! And that matters to me in a DR. I think mine will put four rounds into one hole at 50 yrds offhand. I think it needs a decent leather recoil pad, but other than that I'm a happy camper.-Rob

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:

Any resolution to the TSA/Customs .50 issue? I can't find anything new on it.

The TSA issue will NEVER be settled. It's bureaucracy, it changes with which ever

"flunky" has been appointed to head the agency up. The .50 cal thing is going to be

an issue for ever now. We can have the bullet makers like www.gscustom.co.za make

us 475 #2 Jeffery diameter bullets [.489" diameter] weighing between 530 and 600

grains for a sectional density of .330-.345 or so, Gerard will tell us the required twist

rate for bullet stability and we'll be set. The .50 cal issue will be moot, and we'll

have a round that will be everything the 500 NE is from the view point of any beast

that is shot with it. We must out-think these bureaucrats, and really, that is not much

of a challenge.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

Big 5, I believe that should read 1/3 Rd of the total weight of the rifle between the hands in
shooting position, and should have a ballance point that is slightly forward of the henge pin! The
Merkel double rifle is already too light for the 500NE!

The action is not too small for the 500NE, just too light!

Mac my friend, I think you are splitting hairs with me over
the distribution of the weight of the rifle.
Your point of balancing as you've described is well taken.

And, to make the Merkle action HEAVIER it must be made larger

if we're keeping with the same exact steel, or we need a steel

that weighs more per cubic millimeter.

One thing which happened to me and my son shooting 2 different Merkels...We both were shooting a 500 and using the technique for controling recoil on the first shot the safety went on for both my son and I...
Then I shot another friends 470 and again had the same thing happen with the safety sliding back on...
But I can say they both were not bad shooting rifles..

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by retreever:
One thing which happened to me and my son shooting 2 different Merkels...We both were shooting a 500 and using the technique for controling recoil on the first shot the safety went on for both my son and I...
Then I shot another friends 470 and again had the same thing happen with the safety sliding back on...
But I can say they both were not bad shooting rifles..

Mike

I wonder if the safety went on because of hand movement or because it moved on its own due to recoil?

I know you are very familiar with the 470's recoil, what do you think?

Either way, it would seem a stiffer spring or better indent would solve the problem.

JPK

I had a Merkel 470 8 years ago ,it was the most expensive and inaccurate rifle i ever owned, next to an Arisaka ,that used to send its bullets sideways through the target .While the machining of the action was impeccable ,the engraving of the scrolls etc was poor and a small piece missing from the action sideclip .I could not get either barrel to form any kind of group no matter what load i tried .when i took it to Africa it inexplicably started shooting 7 inches to the right at 20 yards .When shooting at buffalo at 100 yards you didnt know where the heck the bullet would hit it .Sold it ,turned me off double rifles .If... i bought another 470 i would try a Chapuis ,or if i bought a another Merkel, a 500 ,which was what i wanted originally, but Merkel was not making them back then.One story, a fellow , told me ,his mate bought a brand new Holland and Holland double rifle which cost ? i cant remember 80 or 100,000 dollars he could not get it to shoot ,nothing he tried would make it shoot .Ultimately they got expert from Holland and Holland fly out and fix it ,and even he could NOT make the thing shoot ????? I would say Merkel has worked on its quality control since i bought mine ,as everyone i have seen looks nicer and posters here report good accuracy i would say you would be safe with the new Merkels

quote:

Originally posted by tankhunter:
I had a Merkel 470 8 years ago ,it was the most expensive and inaccurate rifle i ever owned, next to an Arisaka ,that used to send its bullets sideways through the target .While the machining of the action was impeccable ,the engraving of the scrolls etc was poor and a small piece missing from the action sideclip .I could not get either barrel to form any kind of group no matter what load i tried .when i took it to Africa it inexplicably started shooting 7 inches to the right at 20 yards .When shooting at buffalo at 100 yards you didnt know where the heck the bullet would hit it .Sold it ,turned me off double rifles .If... i bought another 470 i would try a Chapuis ,or if i bought a another Merkel, a 500 ,which was what i wanted originally, but Merkel was not making them back then.One story, a fellow , told me ,his mate bought a brand new Holland and Holland double rifle which cost ? i cant remember 80 or 100,000 dollars he could not get it to shoot ,nothing he tried would make it shoot .Ultimately they got expert from Holland and Holland fly out and fix it ,and even he could NOT make the thing shoot ????? I would say Merkel has worked on its quality control since i bought mine ,as everyone i have seen looks nicer and posters here report good accuracy i would say you would be safe with the new Merkels

First Tankhunter, what bullets, and powder were you useing in your Merkel 470NE, and were you using filler? Was this your first double rifle? The reason I ask your porblems are not uncommon with folks who are new to double rifles, and can often be fixed with proper bullets, powder, and filler, and knowing how to go about shooting a double rifle. These things are a whole different breed of zebra, from a bolt action.

I'm not saying this is the problem with your Merkel, but it often is. You would not believe the number of almost new double rifles I have bought at bargain basement prices because the new owner could not make them shoot, and thought he had bought a lemon! I've owned, and shot a lot of Merkel double rifles, and I've never owned, or shot one that wasn't accurate!

Lionhunter --

I have a like-new .500 Merkel taking up space in the safe, if you're over this way and want to try it on

JPK, it is the technique I use to control the recoil... The rifle does not move in my hands.. It is inertia causing it to move... I agree with a stiffer spring to overcome the movement..

Mike

Mac D37, i was using Reloader 15 powder, federal primers ,Kynoch wads, woodleigh projectiles ,bertram cases ,also tried another powder Mulwex ,i think[from memory] it was 4831 ,yes it was my first double .But for the life of me, i could not get it to shoot anything acceptable ,to my opinion ,shooting off a standing rest.In the end i was at my wits end, wondering if i was sizing the necks too much , or the primer flashholes were not uniform,or any other trivial inconsistency that could be contributing to its lack of accuracy,any way will try again when i have another spare 10 grand to spare, as i had to spend the money on a[bodily] operation ,in the mean time bought a cz550 416 and rebarreled it to 500 A Square might have to be content with that thanks for your interest

One thing i just want to add is the engraving and the side clip, which were obvious to anyone !!! was not good enough ,personally i would be ashamed to let the thing out the factory door with my name on it !!!!!!!!! i just cant comprehend this ,i just cant !!! a Ten thousand dollar rifle looking like that !!!!!!!!! i had a Savage 110 stainless synthetic 7mm rem mag brand new, it had a trigger with the tip broken off and obvious to a blind man, pits[who could read brail] on the outside of the barrel ,i dont know i dont get it ! maybe people these days dont have a conscience about what they throw out the door

quote:

Originally posted by retreever:
JPK, it is the technique I use to control the recoil... The rifle does not move in my hands.. It is inertia causing it to move... I agree with a stiffer spring to overcome the movement..

Mike

An easy fix. I have never liked an easy to push spring on my doubles, shotgun, rifle, etc, and prefer a very positive feel.

I presume you've never had the issue with your A&S 450 No2? I have never encountered it myself.

Merry Christmas,

JPK

Merry Christmas to all who've replied to my OP, and I hope there is more to come.

Although I had settled upon and reserved a Merkel .500NE, I have postponed the purchase until after the holiday break. My reason is that I no longer feel secure that purchasing anything above .5 caliber is a wise decision at this particular time in history. Given the impending occupation of the White House by a group of affirmed anti-gunners, my fear is that a strict enforcement of current export laws is more likely to occur than not. So, I am now leaning towards a .470NE, even though I'd prefer the .500NE.

I've had my incidents with ignorant TSA employees in the past and am afraid my reaction to being denied ammunition export for a safari by an overly officious TSA jerk would have less than favorable results for my well being.

I have a Merkel 140-2 in the .470 NE and love it. You couldn't go wrong with the .470 NE.

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
Merry Christmas to all who've replied to my OP, and I hope there is more to come.

Although I had settled upon and reserved a Merkel .500NE, I have postponed the purchase until after the holiday break. My reason is that I no longer feel secure that purchasing anything above .5 caliber is a wise decision at this particular time in history. Given the impending occupation of the White House by a group of affirmed anti-gunners, my fear is that a strict enforcement of current export laws is more likely to occur than not. So, I am now leaning towards a .470NE, even though I'd prefer the .500NE.

I've had my incidents with ignorant TSA employees in the past and am afraid my reaction to being denied ammunition export for a safari by an overly officious TSA jerk would have less than favorable results for my well being.

My humble opinion is that the wisest choice is to opt for something that fires a .499 caliber bullet or smaller

AND that is called 499 Nitro Express or something else that does NOT hint at .50 caliber. I know this is sad

advise, but we must be realists. Our shooting hobbies are HATED by many in politically powerful positions

within our government.

Recently in a different thread, it was stated that SCI was going to do something about the
TSA problem. I've e-mailed, and called in an
effort to see if there is progress. E-mails
are unanswered, phoning gets people with no
knowledge of the problem, and little concern.

quote:

Originally posted by tankhunter:
Mac D37, i was using Reloader 15 powder, federal primers ,Kynoch wads, woodleigh projectiles ,bertram cases ,also tried another powder Mulwex ,i think[from memory] it was 4831 ,yes it was my first double .But for the life of me, i could not get it to shoot anything acceptable ,to my opinion ,shooting off a standing rest.In the end i was at my wits end, wondering if i was sizing the necks too much , or the primer flashholes were not uniform,or any other trivial inconsistency that could be contributing to its lack of accuracy,any way will try again when i have another spare 10 grand to spare, as i had to spend the money on a[bodily] operation ,in the mean time bought a cz550 416 and rebarreled it to 500 A Square might have to be content with that thanks for your interest

Tankhunter, lets see if we can figure this out. Though you don't still have this rifle the answers may help the guy you sold it to, or someone else that is new to working up loads their first double rifle.

The RL-15 is a powder that seems to always go south every time you buy a new can of powder. If you are going to use that powder, then you need to buy 10 or 15 pounds pf the same lot, every time you buy, because it seems a new regulating load needs working up with that podwer, with a change of lot number. That could account for the rifle suddenly shooting different when you got to Africa.

Another reason may be the way you are resting the rifle. Just useing a standing rest will not solve anything, if you are resting the rifle dirrectly on the sand bags, rather than holding the rifle as if shooting off hand. A double rifle absolutely must be allowed to recoil in a natural manner, with nothing touching the rifle but your hands, face, and shoulder. You cannot rest dirrectly on anything. As you say it wasn't shooting to your satisfaction before you left home, and the improper resting may be the problem. Addtionally, if when you got to Africa, and you shot off the sticks, if you rested the rifle dirrectly on the sticks and/or your loads were with a new powder lot number, that could account for the shooting different in Africa.

A side by side double rifle is designed to be fired off hand, with the first shot from cool barrels, and the second shot shortly there after, with one re-loading, and fire the next two quickly, as well. The hands can be rested on sand bags, but not any part of the rifle, and you hands need to hold the rifle through it's recoil arch! If you are shooting the rifle from a warm, or hot barrel set durring the work-up, you will never get a good load. To work-up loads, you need to fire four shot, two barrel groups on the target at a time, starting with cool barres for every group, of four, letting the barrel cool completely between four shot groups.

The filler, is another potentual problem if not properly utilized. The filler should be just enough to be only slightly compressed when the bullet is seated, and crimped. If you use dacorn filler, then it must be weighed, to make sure you have the same amount every time. One other thing is how you were measureing the powder charges. each charge needs to be weighed precisely. loading by volum doesn't work well with a double rifle. Another thing is the weight of the brass. The cases must be matched in weight, and Bertram brass is not consistant in weight from one case to the next. Since the outside measurement of sized brass is the same, if one case weighs more than the other, then the volume is smaller in the heavy brass, and larger in the light cases. ! Holding the rifle properly is a must, because the line of sight through the barrels is different from where the sights are point as the rifle is fired, and durring the time (Called Barrel time)the bullet is traveling down the bore has be exactly the amount of time ittakes the barrel to be pointing at the place where the sights were looking when the trigger was pulled. This is because the barrels always recoil up, and away from the other barrel before the bullet exits the muzzle. If you place the barrel set in a padded vice, with the sights lined up on a target, at the regulating distance odf the sights (usually 50 yds on a 470NE)you will see that the right barrel is pointing to a spot on the target that is LOW, and on the LEFT of POA, and vice-versa for the left barrel. So for the rifle to shoot to the regulation the recoil arch must not be hendered by the rifle touching anything other than the shooter, so that the rifle recoils exactly the same way every time. If the load is correct, and the rifle held correctly, then the barrel being fired, will be pointing at the same spot that the sights were pointing at when the bullet exits the muzzle.

The above problem areas are quite common to new double rifle owners. They can't seem to get the bolt action rifle mentality out of their heads. The side by side double rifle is a zebra of a different stripe, and bolt rifle loading habits, and shooting of the rifle do not apply to a double rifle!

The things you report as being poor quality on your Merkel double rifle, are a mystery to me! I have owned several Merkel shotguns, and double rifles, and I've never had a bad one yet, and yours is the first one I've heard of from someone else!

Hope any of this is at least as clear as Mississippi mud! All this may sound silly to the new guy with a double rifle but that is the nature of the double rifle beast! If your rifle was damaged, however, then it all goes out the window, and that could have been you problem, but I assure you it did not come out of the factory that way. It may have been damaged in shipping!

quote:

Originally posted by BigFiveJack:
The Merkle has a steel weight in the buttstock to counter the weight of the bbls.

This is because the action body is a bit small for 500 NE and 470 NE & is a little

"light" as a result. Perhaps this action might be just right for a 375 Flanged Mag

set of properly contoured bbls. But in 470 and 500 this rifle's weight is NOT distributed

in the classic British pattern of 50% of the total weight within the center 1/3rd of the

overall length, and 25% of the overall weight in the forward 1/3rd of the total length,

and 25% of the overall weight within the rear 1/3rd of the overall length. That Brit

"pattern" is what gives the old Brit rifles their "handling" grace. That handling is

a great part of what makes a proper double all that it is.

I think one in .450 # 2 31/4 would be a nice setup with smaller diameter barrels and cleaner lines. I think the 500 has a sharper recoil than many other calibers. I have a 8.6 pound .458 Lott that I feel the same way about.
Bill

I bought a Merkel in .500NE as a first double rifle. This was before becoming aware of the DRSS, and all of the great posts here on AR! My Son attended one of the very first DRSS shoots, and came home with a wealth of information. The 500NE is based on the same frame and barrel as the 470NE, the only differance, is that the bore of the 500NE is larger, The 500NE weighs less than the 470NE, thus the recoil is much more harsher than the 470!
I have since had Butch Searcy build me a 577NE, and sold the Merkel. The recoil of the 577NE is a pleasure to shoot, compaired to the beating we got from the 500NE Merkel!!!!

Looking back, it is interesting how the British gun trade worked around colonial firearm caliber restrictions in the past. Now we have the TSA to "inspire" the trade.


or hmmm, both.