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How would you compare the recoil on a 450/400 in a double rifle like a Heym to a std 9 pound bolt action in typical factory loads. Is it along the lines of a 416 Remington? 375 H&H? I noticed CB's wife taking a shot or shots at a ele with one on his recent DVD on elephant. I think the second shot came closer to the space shuttle than the ele but I got to give her credit for the effort. A small lady! That gun moved her quite a bit. I am think about my next purchase being Heym 450/400 if a nice FOX DE grade in 28 gauge does not change my mind. | ||
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Not much to the 450-400 recoil. Maybe like a 375H&H, no more. Keith IGNORE YOUR RIGHTS AND THEY'LL GO AWAY!!! ------------------------------------ We Band of Bubbas & STC Hunting Club, The Whomper Club | |||
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I agree. They are very pleasant to shoot. | |||
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+1 to that The 450/400 is pleasant to shoot. Cheers all Vegard_dino | |||
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One can easily shoot 16 to 20 rounds of 450/400 in a session and feel good. I think it might be a little more recoil than a .375 but not much more. ALLEN W. JOHNSON - DRSS Into my heart on air that kills From yon far country blows: What are those blue remembered hills, What spires, what farms are those? That is the land of lost content, I see it shining plain, The happy highways where I went And cannot come again. A. E. Housman | |||
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Let me put it to you this way. . . The only soreness in your shoulder will come from you slapping your own back, congratulating yourself on such a fine decision, to buy such a nice double rifle as 450/400 3 inch! Using RL-15 and filler when you reload is a mild recoil compared to 4831. Rusty We Band of Brothers! DRSS, NRA & SCI Life Member "I am rejoiced at my fate. Do not be uneasy about me, for I am with my friends." ----- David Crockett in his last letter (to his children), January 9th, 1836 "I will never forsake Texas and her cause. I am her son." ----- Jose Antonio Navarro, from Mexican Prison in 1841 "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." Thomas Jefferson Declaration of Arbroath April 6, 1320-“. . .It is not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.” | |||
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I had Ruger #1's in both 375 H&H, and 450/400 neither very heavy. I'm not much for recoil, but neither was all that bad with factory loads, the 450 just a bit more than the 375. Not a sharp punch either, more like a push. Fun to shoot. Get it!!! Rick DRSS | |||
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I agree with the above posts. My Ruger No. 1 in 450-400 is fine to shoot 20-30 times. The recoil is more than my 375 H&H, but not bad at all. This is even with the solid black POS pad on it. Definitely less than my 416 Ruger in the synthetic Hawkeye. The other day, I shot one box of each at the range - no bruising or tenderness on the shoulder. | |||
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Best general caliber for an African or Alaskan double rifle. Kills anything , moderate recoil,easily controlled by the average hunter, shooter. No greater power class needed unless you are the PH and backing up a client on a charge. DuggaBoye-O NRA-Life Whittington-Life TSRA-Life DRSS DSC HSC SCI | |||
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My Heym 450/400 is a dream to shoot. I'd agree with others that it's a bit more than the 375 H&H but not much. If you're thinking about it, I recommend you buy one now! NRA Life Member SCI Life Member DRSS | |||
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I agree with all the above posts. The 450/400 is a joy to shoot. And it is a great killer. I have used it for skunks, armidillos, deer and wild pigs,in Texas, black bear in Montana, two caribou, in Alaska, warthog, zebra, baboon, cape buff, lion, and bull elephant in Zimbabwe. You cannot go wrong with a 450/400 Double Rifle. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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Low velocity =even push and not a sharp shove. Less shove than a 375H&H, IMO. | |||
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I just can't believe this. It is deja vu on steroids. All one has to do is use a recoil calculator and find out how recoil varies, though admittedly it will not reveal the difference between powders like 4831 and RL-15. Here is one: http://huntamerica.com/recoil_calculator/ I'm feeling just so uncertain about my feelings about the feelings of recoil or the feelings I have about recoil or the feelings I might have about revealing my feelings about recoil. But then I haven't been watching Opra lately. ------------------------------- Will / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor, GOA, NAGR _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped. “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ If anything be of note, let it be he was once an elephant hunter, hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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Will, Thanks for the link. Answers allot of questions! | |||
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Physics be what it may. Felt recoil differs gun to gun based on fit, type of hold, body position, etc. Without the need for Oprah to coach our expressions of "feelings"; most would agree that though the recoil calculator may show equivalent energy and velocity of various recoiling machinery , those that are built to fit, "feel" more pleasant and or controllable. If it were not the case I doubt many of us would continue to pursue a fitted weapon . DuggaBoye-O NRA-Life Whittington-Life TSRA-Life DRSS DSC HSC SCI | |||
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Wow, speaking of deja vu all over again. . . Rusty We Band of Brothers! DRSS, NRA & SCI Life Member "I am rejoiced at my fate. Do not be uneasy about me, for I am with my friends." ----- David Crockett in his last letter (to his children), January 9th, 1836 "I will never forsake Texas and her cause. I am her son." ----- Jose Antonio Navarro, from Mexican Prison in 1841 "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." Thomas Jefferson Declaration of Arbroath April 6, 1320-“. . .It is not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.” | |||
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I do what I can to help.  Actually to get the same velocity you typically use less RL-15 than 4831 so maybe the recoil calculator does account for less RL-15 recoil, but maybe not feelings.  ------------------------------- Will / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor, GOA, NAGR _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped. “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ If anything be of note, let it be he was once an elephant hunter, hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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I love double rifles and I love hunting buffalo. Hope to hunt elephant soon. Why would I invest in a .40 calibre double rifle? Help me, I'm not intending to be critical or confrontational. I'm sure I'd enjoy shooting it, but I doubt it's the best tool for the job. | |||
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It really depends on what you think is "best, and for which "job".". For me, if I could only have one DR, I would have a 450-400. Plenty for the big stuff and a pleasure to shoot the not so big critters. If I had to "need" a stopper, then I would pick the 500NE or the 577NE. Keith IGNORE YOUR RIGHTS AND THEY'LL GO AWAY!!! ------------------------------------ We Band of Bubbas & STC Hunting Club, The Whomper Club | |||
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Why? Because with Baggage costs these days, carrying one rifle is often a good plan and when you do go after your Ele, a Leopard might be become available or maybe just a Warthog or Hyena? This is when you can fix the Scope and your in business for all game. | |||
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Either the 3 & 1/4" or the 3" IMHO. Jack OH GOD! {Seriously, we need the help.} | |||
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Hog Killer: I know that much of this is a matter of personal preference but for me anyway, I just don't understand everyones affinity for the 450/400. It WAS indeed a great caliber in its' day but even back then, it was eclipsed by the .375 H&H and faded into obsolescence. Now, you can buy a rifle of the same weight in the more modern 500/416 and the 500/416 is a much better cartridge. Most 450/400s are only running about 2050 at the muzzle with a 400 grain bullet. The 500/416 will give you and honest 2300-2350 fps at the muzzle with that same 400 grain bullet. I say if you are going to drag around a rifle that weighs 10-10.5 pounds the .500/416 is the better choice and if you plan on putting a scope on your rifle, the 500/416 is WAY better choice. The same weight as a 450/400 but shoots faster and flatter and packs almost the same energy as a .470... the perfect double rifle cartridge. Just my two cents. Dave Dave DRSS Chapuis 9.3X74 Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL Krieghoff 500/.416 NE Krieghoff 500 NE "Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer" "If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition). | |||
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Dave. I th\ink you have just stated what you think is "best value" to you. 500-416 is "Modern"/new, the most in 40cal., including recoil. The old 450-400 still is easy to shoot and fairly mild recoil. Yea it was surpassed by the 375 H&H, in cheaper costing BOLT GUNS, than a DR in 450-400.(economics) The main reason theere are any 375 H&H DRs is ammo availablity, as in the resant past there it was hard to find any 450-400 ammo., The old 450-400 @ under 2100fps, still will kill any thing in Africa,. They have not got'n any tougher over the years. Yes the 500/416 will kill everything just fine. But with it's increased speed, you will have to receive it's extra recoil. Keith IGNORE YOUR RIGHTS AND THEY'LL GO AWAY!!! ------------------------------------ We Band of Bubbas & STC Hunting Club, The Whomper Club | |||
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Dave, I have to agree with you about the 500/416. Killer round. Probably a double rifle standard for the future. Good long 400 grain .416 bullet that like the long 400 grain .408-.411 penetrates well. The flanged case is good. On the down side as I look at it is the recoil. The 500/416 is after all a neckdown 500 size case. The K gun I shot chambered in 500/416 had what I would call a "Brisk" recoil. Most certainly more than my 400 Jeffery. If you don't mind the 470 or 500 recoil then a 500/416 wouldn't be a problem for the shooter. For the double rifle shooter who would want such a chambering the 500/416 is an excellent choice. Rusty We Band of Brothers! DRSS, NRA & SCI Life Member "I am rejoiced at my fate. Do not be uneasy about me, for I am with my friends." ----- David Crockett in his last letter (to his children), January 9th, 1836 "I will never forsake Texas and her cause. I am her son." ----- Jose Antonio Navarro, from Mexican Prison in 1841 "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." Thomas Jefferson Declaration of Arbroath April 6, 1320-“. . .It is not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.” | |||
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It seems to be the latest craze! It is sort of like a 375 H&H but in a double. It would be a fun gun to lug around as long as one doesn't expect too much of it. ------------------------------- Will / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor, GOA, NAGR _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped. “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ If anything be of note, let it be he was once an elephant hunter, hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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The only problem with Will is he can't find a double rifle light enough for "it's caliber" for him to "lug" through the bush. I'd say it's just about right. I think it would counter balance all those wallets he's carrying around? He calls a 10 lbs 450/400 3 pounds too heavy and then when asked where could he find a 7 lbs double, he says there isn't one. Will how much do the double rifles that you carry, weigh? Maybe, I need to just buy a couple of Will's wallets??? Rusty We Band of Brothers! DRSS, NRA & SCI Life Member "I am rejoiced at my fate. Do not be uneasy about me, for I am with my friends." ----- David Crockett in his last letter (to his children), January 9th, 1836 "I will never forsake Texas and her cause. I am her son." ----- Jose Antonio Navarro, from Mexican Prison in 1841 "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." Thomas Jefferson Declaration of Arbroath April 6, 1320-“. . .It is not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.” | |||
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Hey Rusty, if I was as young and as good looking as you I wouldn't hesitate to carry a twelve pound 450/400. ------------------------------- Will / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor, GOA, NAGR _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped. “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ If anything be of note, let it be he was once an elephant hunter, hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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Dave, you've opened DR pandora's box here, I agree somewhat with your logic but you have cancelled out one of the major reasons DR's users enjoy their DR's and that's nostalgia. That is one thing that the 500/416 does'nt have and NEVER WILL. The second thing IMO the 500/416's recoil is on par with the 470 (I used to own a Heym in 500/416 and a 470 I know). So I'd rather carry a 470 or better yet a 450. IMO the 450 N.E. is the best all around caliber because of bullet selection, weight of rifle and modest recoil. It's a killer that won't beat you up at the range. If, and I say if you are recoil sensitive then the 450/400 rules for having mild-moderate recoil and able to kill everything on the planet well excluding elephant, it will kill an ele but IMO it's not the best choice for ele. "An individual with experience is never at the mercies of an individual with an argument" | |||
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I just had to try the little 7 lb. Chapuis 9.3x74R on elephants, as the gun was so light!! Well, the 9.3 doesn't have much effect on elephants when you miss the brain! But I tried. It didn't work, so I had to admit I screwed up. Hey, if you like 10 lb. 450/400's more power to you. If I was 20 instead of ancient I might not mind them either. But I've hung up my hat on elephants. If I was to go again it would be with what I consider to be the ultimate DG rifle, my little 7.5 lb. 416 Taylors. With 4 down and 5000 ft-lbs. they really are enough gun!  ------------------------------- Will / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor, GOA, NAGR _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped. “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ If anything be of note, let it be he was once an elephant hunter, hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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me too! ------------------------------- Will / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor, GOA, NAGR _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped. “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ If anything be of note, let it be he was once an elephant hunter, hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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Dirk: You are obviously right about the nostalgia part. By double rifle standards, the 500/416 is like this mornings sun but you have to admit that is is ballistically superior in every way to the 450/400. Sometimes "nostalgia" also equates to "antiquated". I have been shooting a .416 Rigby for a long time and now a 500/416 as well and frankly, I can't understand what all this fuss is about the recoil of the 500/416. If a guy can handle a .416 Rigby, he (or she) can certainly handle a 500/416. Does it have more recoil than a 450/400? In guns of similar weight, of course it does but then again, IT'S A LOT MORE CARTRIDGE. But it is the question of weight that points up the conundrum. Here is where I agree with Will. I think almost all 450/400s are invariably built to heavy. One of the reasons that most people think the recoil is so modest is because they are often built in the 10.5 pound range when they should be a pound to a pound and a half lighter. There is one place where we disagree. I don't think the 500/416 has near the recoil of the .470 but I understand that recoil is a subjective thing. I just want to throw out this quote to you from page 104-105 of John Taylor's AFRICAN RIFLES AND CARTRIDGES: "But I have never been able to understand why John Rigby hasn't brought out a double-barreled edition of his .416. which he could have called a .416N=2 and which could have had the same ballistics as the Mauser. For all-work against heavy and dangerous game in any part of the world such a rifle would be just about ideal. Fitted with 26" barrels it need not weigh an once over 10-lbs.; and there are many men who would prefer such a weapon to anything in the .450-.470 group , the average weights of which run close to a pound heavier." At some point, I am going to pick up a .470. However, I also believe that if you have a 500/416 there is really no "need" for a .470 but we all know that need is not really part of this equation Dirk, cartridges are ultimately a matter of personal preference. If your choice is the 450/400, I say go for it. For me, if I have to carry a gun that weighs 10-10.5 pounds, my pick would be the 500/416. Good hunting. Dave Dave DRSS Chapuis 9.3X74 Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL Krieghoff 500/.416 NE Krieghoff 500 NE "Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer" "If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition). | |||
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Dave DRSS Chapuis 9.3X74 Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL Krieghoff 500/.416 NE Krieghoff 500 NE "Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer" "If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition). | |||
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Dave DRSS Chapuis 9.3X74 Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL Krieghoff 500/.416 NE Krieghoff 500 NE "Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer" "If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition). | |||
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Speaking of recoil. . . We were? Weren't we? I have come before you to make a confession. I took an oath several years ago to never shoot another rifle chambered in 500 NE. I met Mike Jines at the range this morning. He was checking loads in his 500 NE Kreighoff. He had this really soft slip-on recoil pad on the rifle. He promised me that it really did a great job of spreading out the recoil!. . .He lied!  Man, I hate it when I fall off the 500 NE Wagon! Rusty We Band of Brothers! DRSS, NRA & SCI Life Member "I am rejoiced at my fate. Do not be uneasy about me, for I am with my friends." ----- David Crockett in his last letter (to his children), January 9th, 1836 "I will never forsake Texas and her cause. I am her son." ----- Jose Antonio Navarro, from Mexican Prison in 1841 "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." Thomas Jefferson Declaration of Arbroath April 6, 1320-“. . .It is not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.” | |||
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------------------------------- Will / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor, GOA, NAGR _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped. “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ If anything be of note, let it be he was once an elephant hunter, hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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Rusty never even noticed that I slipped the "special" load into the rifle. Still amazes me that you can get 2800 fps with a 570 grain bullet.  On another note, Rusty's red dot sight on his Hollis works like a champ. Very easy to use. Mike | |||
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Rusty: I know what you mean. My friend had two different .500s over the years, a Merkel and a Heym. I could shoot them but I didn't really want to. For some reason, I thought the Heym was especially punishing but I can't really say why and it was fairly heavy. It's pushing that 570 grain bullet. I don't have any problem with my .500 Jeffery with a 535 grain bullet but there is just something about a .500 double that really, really gets you attention. Mike, do you have any idea what your K-gun weighs? Dave Dave DRSS Chapuis 9.3X74 Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL Krieghoff 500/.416 NE Krieghoff 500 NE "Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer" "If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition). | |||
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With no fear that Will will chime in here. . .I'd say from personal experience. . .Not enough! Rusty We Band of Brothers! DRSS, NRA & SCI Life Member "I am rejoiced at my fate. Do not be uneasy about me, for I am with my friends." ----- David Crockett in his last letter (to his children), January 9th, 1836 "I will never forsake Texas and her cause. I am her son." ----- Jose Antonio Navarro, from Mexican Prison in 1841 "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." Thomas Jefferson Declaration of Arbroath April 6, 1320-“. . .It is not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.” | |||
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10.6 on my unofficial bathroom scale -- that is with my super kushy recoil evaporating slip on recoil pad. Mike | |||
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