A couple of Tulsa shows ago, I bought a Cogswell and Harrison Cosmos 12 bore ball and shot gun in the maker's case. I only owned it overnight because I was offered a substantial profit. I regretted selling it and it languished in a Dallas gun shop for the last 18 months. They called me and offered it to me for a good price and now I have it again. I just received the factory letter on the gun and it was completed on October 17, 1898. It has original London nitro proofs as the barrels are steel.
When I spoke with Michael Cooley at Cogswell and Harrison, he was quite pleased that a Cosmos had surfaced in that they are somewhat scarce.
If anyone has any of the "Paradox" design bullets extra, I would like to get a couple to load into brass cases for display. I will be displaying my Coggie collection at the Houston Gun Collectors show in October. C&H sent me some display materials to help in the show.
Also, if anyone has the ability to post some photos for me I will be happy to supply photos of this gun and a couple of others.

"When I spoke with Michael Cooley at Cogswell and Harrison, he was quite pleased that a Cosmos had surfaced in that they are somewhat scarce."

He obviously doesn't look very hard as a few have been sold over the last few years in the Auctions in the UK and quite a few exist in the US and here in Aust.

500N
Thanks for setting me straight on the "somewhat scarce" issue. At this time, I'm unable to locate any for sale in the US and have not seen any in the last several years despite setting up at major gun shows and looking for them. I guess I'm just not looking in the right places.
I don't look to add to my collection by buying from the UK or Australia as the issue of buying without personally examining the piece is against my usual practices. This limits my chances of finding guns that are more common in those areas. Mr. Cooley doesn't collect and his reasoning comes from inquiries from owners about the history of their guns. I guess that few Cosmos owners are inquisitive about their history.
I was sharp enough to find the moulds for the 12 bore paradox bullet available in Australia.
Have you tried them and are the moulds a good quality product?
If you get to Texas, drop by and visit.

DEar Mike,

I've got a Coggie Cosmos and have so far had no great success regulating the barrels. I've plenty of Paradox ammo handloaded using .735 pure lead heads that I've bought, and have an H&H style crimping tool for the 12 bore cases I load, crimping into the waist of the Paradox head. All very interesting, but am going to have to find more about it. Recently learned that regulating Paradox guns may have to be done offhand, rather than from a rest. Not sure I believe that although it's sourced to H&H itself. As you may know, H&H is in the process of reintroducing the 12 bore Paradox.
Best, Tim

Mike

Lately, I haven't seen any for sale in the US either so they must have found new homes.

I think (maybe ?) Mike Schwandt had one for sale at one stage - or one of the sights I check regularly in the US.

Mike

Re buying OS, their are enough people on the 2 major forums (AR and NE) that most people live close enough to somewhere to be able to look at a gun in another country.

I won't buy a gun in the UK or US without someone
I know looking at it.

Re 12 bore molds in Aus - who are you taling about ? CBE or someone in South Australia ?

Texas - drop by - I need to visit that small state of yours sometime !! - maybe, one day !

The likelihood is I will as I am getting more and more stuff made in the US (you guys speak English !) so will need to do a business trip sometime in the future.


Tim Carney - where did you hear that Paradox's need to be regulated off hand ?

Sounds strange to me.

Tim,
When was your Cogswell made? What bullet stabilization system does it use,rifled choke etc?

quote:

Origenally posted by Tim Carney

Recently learned that regulating Paradox guns may have to be done offhand, rather than from a rest. Not sure I believe that although it's sourced to H&H itself. As you may know, H&H is in the process of reintroducing the 12 bore Paradox.
Best, Tim

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:
Mike

Re buying OS, their are enough people on the 2 major forums (AR and NE) that most people live close enough to somewhere to be able to look at a gun in another country.

I won't buy a gun in the UK or US without someone
I know looking at it.

Re 12 bore molds in Aus - who are you taling about ? CBE or someone in South Australia ?

Texas - drop by - I need to visit that small state of yours sometime !! - maybe, one day !

The likelihood is I will as I am getting more and more stuff made in the US (you guys speak English !) so will need to do a business trip sometime in the future.


Tim Carney - where did you hear that Paradox's need to be regulated off hand ?

Sounds strange to me.

Paradox guns must be shot the same as any double rifle when working a load that shoots to the regulation built into the gun! H&H is correct in their message about the rifle needing to be shot as if off hand. They were simply not clear in their meaning of "OFF HAND"! As anyone knows, who works with double rifles, or paradox guns, the rules are the same for them all.

What H&H was trying to say, but were not clear, assuming the owner of a fine Paradox would have some knowledge that negated the explanation. Any double rifle must absolutely be allowed to recoil freely, as if fired off hand. The use of rests to shoot a double rifle, or Paradox, must be done properly, if one is to get the correct load to regulate in the piece. The rifle should never touch anything other than the shooter's face, hands, and shoulder. The forehand is properly placed at the forward end of the forend wood, with the fingers wrapping around and touching the barrels, to control the rifle. A rest may be placed under the forehand to rest the rifle in that hand. The toe of the buttstock is not to be rested on a bag, but held in place by the shoulder, buttplate contact. No other rest is used for the rifle it's self!

The face, of course will be in contact with the buttstock's cheekpiece! To rest the body the right elbow,(of a right handed shooter) may be rested on a bag, or elbow pad to steady the shooter's body for steady shooting. All this is best done at a standing bench, so the body is upright, as if standing in a hunting "OFF HAND" shooting position. This allows the rifle to recoil through it's normal, so-called, muzzle flip, and rise! If the rifle is rested dirrectly on a sand bag, it will hender the natural recoil arc of the recoil as when fired OFF HAND, and so the proper load cannot normally be found when useing a rest dirrectly in contact with the rifle! IMO, H&H just didn't think they needed to explain the process, to anyone who owns a double rifle of any type!

Good luck with your paradox, and let us know what you come up with for a load that regulates in your gun!

500N - CBE is what I was referring to. Model 7-735-PAR.

Mike

Yep, CBE - Cast Bullet Engineering.

I just posted a link on another forum for someone who was chasing cast bullets for
a 9.3 x 74.

I believe they wll make any mold you like
- and yes, quite a few of my mates have
Paradox molds for H&H and Cosmos's etc made
by him.

Useful discussion and thanks for details here. Sorry not to have been more specific, but the word I got and found unlikely was that chokerifled guns needed to be shot literally off-hand, rather than in the way that doubles are usually fired as MacD37 described so well.

Yes, the 1904-made Coggie Cosmos is choke rifled and the rifling is land and groove, rather than the original ratchet rifling patent that H&H bought in the mid-80s. Even several barrel moves have so far failed to effect regulation, and I'm not gunsmith to think of what more to do.

Best, Tim

quote:

Originally posted by Tim Carney:
Useful discussion and thanks for details here. Sorry not to have been more specific, but the word I got and found unlikely was that chokerifled guns needed to be shot literally off-hand, rather than in the way that doubles are usually fired as MacD37 described so well.

Yes, the 1904-made Coggie Cosmos is choke rifled and the rifling is land and groove, rather than the original ratchet rifling patent that H&H bought in the mid-80s. Even several barrel moves have so far failed to effect regulation, and I'm not gunsmith to think of what more to do.

Best, Tim

Tim, I've had several ball & shot guns (Paradox), over the years, and all but one had the land and groove rifleing in the last 5" of the barrels, and they have always regulated well with the same process as a full rifled double.

I've never heard the actual "OFF HAND" drill for the bore rifles, or the paradox. Something new to me, but then you are never too old to learn something new, just too old to put it into practice, at times!

Tim

I think the "OFF HAND" may be a myth.
If the gun recoils the same and is not held
in any way that is different, I can't see why
it would affect it.

Plenty of people here shoot DR's of all sorts
from a bench (carefully so as not to effect regulation) so that it can be done accurately.

Although I use a standing rest and if I need to, once I have sorted out the load for extra stability I might do a couple off the bench.

Lads,

Couldn't agree with you more on how to hold for regulation. Might be awkward if you couldn't shoot from a handy tree when the sable of your life presented itself and you had a chance to steady yourself. Expect there's a bit of communication problem between British and American English... I'll give Russel Wilkins a call to sort this, apropos of which it seems to be taking a little long for him to effect regulation on the new Holland Paradox. Hmmm...

Regards

Tim

Not sure I understand the reason for your comment
"it seems to be taking a little long for him to effect regulation on the new Holland Paradox. Hmmm..."

The last people I would have thought would have a problem would be Holland's ?
with the wealth of experience they ahve access to.

Re; The new paradox
I know someone who was allowed to use one in a hunting situation last year and the gun worked flawlessly.
Tim;
You say you "moved" the barrels on your gun, and it still won't regulate. What are your bore and choke measurements and do you get good individual barrel accuracy? These guns were designed to use a harder alloy than pure lead.