All,

I need to play with some loads for that 475 I bought from Al.

Dacron is a trademark.

I went to the local fabric store and found some what might work. SuperSoft Fiber. 100% polyester fiberfill. ( www.poly-fill.com )

They didn't have Dacron Hollofil.

Is this the right stuff (Pun fully intended)?

Thanks!

-Steve

Steve,
I had the same problem when I started reloading NE rounds! I could not find Dacron fill anywhere, so I have been using the 100% polyfill without any problem. I think that Dacron is a trademark name for Polyester

Steve,
I use the same sutff you are using....I get it at wal-mart

Here is what the Dacron Polyfil looks like.


I am now using the type of foam that Kynoch uses and sells.


I am in the process of making cutters for the 400-500 size.

I even use the foam when I load RL-15 in my 404 Jeffery cases.

What happens to these foams and fillers when you shoot? Do they affect the barrel as in leaving residue?
Boha

quote:

Originally posted by Doc52:
Steve,
I had the same problem when I started reloading NE rounds! I could not find Dacron fill anywhere, so I have been using the 100% polyfill without any problem. I think that Dacron is a trademark name for Polyester

Right, simply use poly-fill pillow stuffing, available at any fabric store! It comes in large bags, and one bag will build hundereds of rounds.

There is no residue from the fiber fill, or the foam Rusty, and Tony use! They are simply spit out the muzzle, like the patch around a round ball in a muzzleloader!

I've fired thousands of 32-40 and 30-30 Wesson cartridges with pure cotton filler over powder and breach seated bullets with no ill effects. I also use cotton in my 450-400 3 1/4 nitro for black loads. It just comes out in a shredded piece. The foam I have used just disentegrates. I believe in the long run that certain fillers could have a detrimental effect to rifling. If youi have had an opportunity to inspect some of the old Sharps buffalo rifles that fired thousands of rounds of paper-patched projectiles you would see visible wear in the lands. Paper is an abrasive, especially those with a high precentage of cotton content. Consequently, I have seen cleaning rods used improperly that, when pushin a jag or patch out the muzzle,are drug back into the bore and literally wore down the edge of the crown. In the end, however, you would need to fire thousands of rounds with an abrasive filler to harm your bore, I believe. So long as dirt is not introduced into the filler, which would expedite wear. Just my 2 cents of experience.


Dutch

Thanks!

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty:

I am now using the type of foam that Kynoch uses and sells.

I am in the process of making cutters for the 400-500 size.

I even use the foam when I load RL-15 in my 404 Jeffery cases.

Rusty, is there anything special about the foam Kynoch sells? Do you think it is just regular foam of a certain density? I would also like to try foam in my 416 Rigby and 404 Jeffery and would like to know how you have gone about it.

quote:

one bag will build hundereds of rounds.

Mac:

If it is the size of our bag (paid something like $2.00 for it at Wal-Mart), I think you could honestly expect to get thousands, if not ten thousand rounds out of one bag!

Wink,
Send me your mailing address and I'll send yu plenty of foam! I ordered a bunch of it in 3'X3' sheets. You can cut your own.

email me at rkmojo@aol.com

Thanks guys! I have a bag and will try some R15 with filler (and 4832 without) this weekend. That is if it ain't raining too much to use the Chrono. Awwww.., Winter in Western Oregon.

I also have some Kynoch wads coming. Thier back ordered from Keith's right now.

New toy. Lots of playing around to do. This is typical of the groups I was getting last week (@ 50 yds) with the ammo that came with the gun.




-Steve

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty:
Wink,
Send me your mailing address and I'll send yu plenty of foam! I ordered a bunch of it in 3'X3' sheets. You can cut your own.

email me at rkmojo@aol.com

Rusty,

Where'd you buy it at? Do you have the specs for it?

Thanks!

-Steve

Rusty,

An e-mail has been sent. I hope my wife's cookie cutters are the right diameter.

Steve,
Email me your address and I'll send you some foam.

Gentlemen:

One of the concerns about using wads and fillers has been that they are thought to contribute to chamber ringing, the creation of a ring bulge in the chamber at the base of the bullet. While the cause can be debated, the fact of the existence of chamber rings cannot.

The late Charlie Dell did extensive testing on this phenomenon and eventually got to the point that he could ring a test chamber at will.

Without getting real long winded, the gist of his finding are this: In a partially filled case, if the face of the powder column is flat (as it would be if a card wad was press down on top of the powder) the forces that cause chamber rings are at their greatest. By leaving the wad .100" to .200" off of the powder (allowing the powder to "slump" slightly) the tendency to ring is greatly reduced.

In addition he found that Dacron filler also promoted the ringing force. He had no explanation for it but his testing proved it to be true. On the other hand, a similar but natural filler Kapok, did not demonstrate this tendency.

None of this may be an issue in modern rifles with modern steel barrels. I have not seen a ringed chamber in a modern rifle. However, in the old single shots with their soft steel barrels I work with it does indeed happen. I would have the same concerns with old double rifles.

Glenn Fewless

quote:

Originally posted by Wink:
Rusty,

An e-mail has been sent. I hope my wife's cookie cutters are the right diameter.

Before I bought Kynoch foam wads, I cut my own using a 50 BMG case sharpened with a deburring tool.

Glenn,
I believe that the chamber ringing has to do with Nitro for BP loads?

Rusty:

I believe that such a rifle would be an ideal candidate for chamber ringing. An old BP rifle with soft steel, a large case patially filled with nitro powder and a wad set down on the powder to hold it in position. This is exactly the situation where we encounter rings in old Schuetzen rifles. However, the ringing force exists in any patially filled case and can be enhanced with a wad down on the powder or dacron filler. It may well be that modern barrel steel is proof against this force and so it is not an issue for them.

Glenn

Rusty, what are you using to cut the foam?

I'm having my machine shop make me some tool steel cutters to cut the foam plugs. I could have had the factory where I ordered the foam make the dies, but that would have been $200-300 US to make the dies. I will try to get some cutters made for the larger Kynoch wads as well.

hst:
You're not telling the full story in your first post, although you do get to it in your last.

The chamber ringing is caused by an air-space between the wadding and the base of the bullet, not by the dacron per se.

When chamber ringing was a common occurrence, shooters believed that a small tuft of dacron or kapok jammed down on the powder column to keep it in the rear of the case, was the way to go. Many used a milk-carton wad pressed down onto the powder, as you say, and from memory it was that which caused the greatest risk of chamber-ringing as demonstrated by Dell. Never EVER do this!

Now, thanks to the writings of Ross Seyfried, Sherman Bell, and many others, we know that a LARGE tuft of dacron or kapok can be used safely, typically 8 to 15 grains in NforB loads, depending on the case. This is tennis-ball to soft-ball sized, before being compressed into the case. Rusty's pics show the proper amount needed with Reloader 15 in the .450/.400 NE (..I assume?).

Whatever the load, there must be no air-space between the wadding and the bullet-base, and no chance of anything moving in transit or during first-barrel recoil.

No filler or wads are necessary with bulky slow-burning 4831-type powders (except in the big Jeffery No.2 cartridges!).

We've been around this buoy many times before I know, but it needs to be re-posted continually for the benefit of new-comers to the forums, and to those new to N-for-B loads or Reloader powders in NE cases. Apologies to the rest of us!

What Marrakai said. Dell only proved the obvious - that an idiot can ring a chamber by using fillers incorrectly.

I shoot quite a few big bore doubles and, due to the cost, I'm paranoid about what I feed them, and have followed the debate about fillers carefully. Reloder 15 is always the first powder I try, and is usually the last. This powder requires a filler in .450/.400 and up, so I've sent a lot of dacron downrange over the years. It works perfectly and, used correctly, I've found it to be 100% safe. I prefer it to other fillers. In NFB applications in BPE rifles, I've heard of damage from the use of foam, but not dacron. I know a number of guys who use dacron for that application, including some damascus guns, and they've never experienced a problem.
-----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Sorry for bothering you guys.

Glenn

This was a very Pleasant rehash of Fillers in N.E. Cartridges.. Genteel.. I would hope the next time the subject of Chubby Checkers comes up it will have this quality..
AK

hst:
I hope you haven't taken our responses to your post to mean that your input is not valued, as this is certainly not the case! I was just taking the opportunity to reiterate a few very important points, that's all. It is imperative that we remain cautious at all times, when proposing to touch-off many tons of fire and brimstone a few inches in front of our noses!

If you have any queries, or doubts about anything at all, this is the place to air them, and hopefully get the 'good oil' or at least set your mind at rest.


...and on the subject of wads, I should like to post my experiences with polyurethane foam. Firstly, I know many of the Big Game Rifle Club members in Melbourne have gone across to foam, and Rusty uses it here with no worries, but my attempts to use the stuff highlighted a potential problem.

I loaded up a bunch of .577 x 2 3/4 Light Nitro cases with foam wads a few years back, cut slightly oversized to be a nice tight fit in the case. I twisted them into position onto the powder, and seated the projectiles, no problems so far. Shake the case, no sound. All is well.

However, after a few kilometres of rough corrugated tracks (wash-board, for you guys across the pond) on the way into the hunting area, I was loading up my cartridge wallet and noticed that some of the cases rattled. I could clearly hear the powder 'rattling' inside the case!

Turns out that the foam wads are very 'grippy' on the inside walls of the case, and if carried bullet-down, the wad can be compressed back against the bullet-base, where it stays put!

This didn't cause me a problem on the day, because the powder in that case was medium-fast, and the air-space was NOT between the wadding and the bullet-base, but it gave me cause for concern. I went back to the saddle-felt wads I had been using before, and still use happily today. I am envious that you guys state-side can buy pre-cut felt wads for just a couple dollars per hundred, as I have to punch mine from off-cut sheets of saddle-felt!

The other concern I had was that polyurethane foam eventually turns to a soft, crumbly gooey mess in the tropics, although this usually takes a couple of years or more. Still, its possible for a loaded round to sit for that long unfired, perhaps forgotten in the bottom of the gear-bag, or similar. And inside a case, the foam is further subjected to the action of any solvents which continue to evaporate from the powder coating. What is the long-term effect of this? Who knows. Fur-felt, on the other hand, has (probably) been found intact in the pharoah's tombs, so no problem there!

I almost didn't post this, because those that use foam successfully might regard it as an attack on their methods, but it is not intended as such. I know foam works for many reloaders, if not most, but thought that my experiences might be of some value to the collective intelligence on this fascinating subject.

For my 450/400's I use a 1/2" arch punch such as those used in leather work. They stay sharpe and are easily resharpened. Larger diameters are available.

Marrakai,

I have some foam loads from the DRSS hunt in January of this year. I'll put them in my truck and bounce them around for 6-12 months. I'll do the same with some Dacron filler.

I'll place some face down and some rolling around on their sides.


It would at least give us a place to start from as far as testing goes.

Marrakai makes a valid point. IMHO the secret to NO RINGING is to have the dacron or the foam fairly heavily COMPRESSED, so it is unable to settle or move in the case.

I have shot three to four thousand rounds through my 450 No2 using dacron and 3 different types of foam. no problems. All loads even with IMR 4831 neeed foam in the 450 No2 or you will get hangfires.

quote:

I have some foam loads from the DRSS hunt in January of this year. I'll put them in my truck and bounce them around for 6-12 months. I'll do the same with some Dacron filler.
I'll place some face down and some rolling around on their sides.
It would at least give us a place to start from as far as testing goes.

Thanks Rusty. I guess I should have another go at it too, perhaps cut the foam wads to be an easy slip-fit inside the case rather than a tight fit. Might try this next time I run out of felt!